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Comparison working in Police forensics Vs. Private forensics

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(@wotsits)
Posts: 253
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I'd really like to hear from people who have experience in one or both of these areas. I've seen increasing numbers of jobs advertised for working in police forces cyber forensics departments. The pay is often not very competitive which might lead you to believe it is less desirable to work in forensics for the police, but is this necessarily the case?

I appreciate there are key differences in working to obtain evidence in a criminal investigation and the laws and procedures that must be followed, compared with private investigations. But I'm more interested to hear about the environment, skills, caseload management, etc.

I'm sure there are many people on here who are or have worked in both environments so I'd love to hear more.

For example

1 - Is the caseload for each examiner significantly more in the police? Are they less efficient?
2 - Are the police well up to date with the latest technology and methodologies used or are they lagging behind private professionals?
3 - How much and in what circumstances do the police outsource their work to private forensics or do they tend to do their work in house?

Although I will be the first to say I'm a beginner with very little experience there are two things I have noticed. One is that the police jobs are often offering low pay with training provided, that tells me that perhaps they are attracting the lower skilled and beginners. The other thing is they seem quite rigid, I typically only see EnCase being used by the police and occasionally perhaps a mobile examination tool like XRY - that suggests that perhaps examination is more of a routine on a conveyor belt with less attention to detail and less flexibility when it comes to new problems (e.g. if a new phone comes in that they don't know how to unlock).

I don't mean this with any disrespect to those who work in police forensics, I understand it can be a great beginning to put on your CV and I accept that the police are very resource limited. I'd just like to hear as much as possible.

 
Posted : 06/01/2016 1:44 pm
(@jerryw)
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From a UK perspective, having worked in both sectors for the past ten years, I can report that there are relatively few technical areas of difference. I think your observation that those working in law enforcement are low-skilled and/or beginners is not how it is. There are those who are at the beginning of their forensic careers in LE, as there are in the corporate sector.

While many investigations may be based around EnCase, there are many other tools in use. That is no different in LE or the private sector.

The pay may be lower generally for experienced practitioners in LE but there is some compensation in a regular supply of varied work. There can also be a greater investment in initial training.

Another consideration is geography. There are High Tech Crime Units within most, if not all Police forces. However, the private sector is limited to London and a few other 'hot-spots' in the UK. When calculating a salary bear in mind a rail season ticket at £5K or more and an early start every day.

If there is one big difference between the two sectors it is the word 'utilisation' in the corporate sectors i.e. how much of your day's work is being paid for by someone. If there is a 'conveyer belt' it will be in the corporate sector not LE, but that is being disrespectful to those applying a professional standard of work, wherever they are.

This all really applies to those in the criminal justice system; digital forensics now covers many other areas such as eDiscovery and cyber security.

 
Posted : 06/01/2016 2:29 pm
(@cbrown509)
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Have only worked in the LE environment, but have been involved in computer forensics for 18 years.
It is an ever increasing struggle to get equipment and training.
Back logs and deadlines which presumably are no different where you work.
The management tends to be non technical but still make all decisions based on what they have picked up from a seminar.
Work is graded, the most serious work is always done asap, so any non urgent jobs get stuck at the bottom of the pile or farmed out to private companies.
In that respect you do get to deal with perhaps the most interesting enquiries.

 
Posted : 06/01/2016 3:20 pm
(@wotsits)
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Have only worked in the LE environment, but have been involved in computer forensics for 18 years.
It is an ever increasing struggle to get equipment and training.
Back logs and deadlines which presumably are no different where you work.
The management tends to be non technical but still make all decisions based on what they have picked up from a seminar.
Work is graded, the most serious work is always done asap, so any non urgent jobs get stuck at the bottom of the pile or farmed out to private companies.
In that respect you do get to deal with perhaps the most interesting enquiries.

What's the grading of seriousness to what gets moved to the bottom of the pile? Is it only non urgent stuff that gets farmed out?
What's a typical backlog where you work (if there is a 'typical' or what is the current approximate turnaround)?

 
Posted : 06/01/2016 4:00 pm
(@tacobreath)
Posts: 14
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I can give you my limited perspective in working LE forensics in the States. I was a road patrol cop for 8 years before I got into my current spot (child exploitation task force). I already had some computer skills prior to joining LE, but none of those skills were utilized while being an LEO. My current task force position changed that. Suddenly I came in contact with cases where my computer skills were necessary to investigating the cases as they involved forensically locating the child pornography, etc., on computers, phones, etc. My belief is many LEOs in the States get involved in forensics the same way, almost by accident. It seems to be that the computer geek in the bunch of cops is the one who is either selected for or gravitates toward forensics. This may be true of LEOs in forensics around the world, but I don't know.

Larger agencies here often have investigators/detectives dedicated to working forensics exclusively (as opposed to investigating cases in addition to doing forensics, as is my case), or they have civilians who work in an agency-related crime lab. There are also regional computer forensics labs across the States that take cases from smaller agencies that cannot do the work themselves. One of the posters mentioned farming out forensics work to a civilian company, but I can't imagine that happens very often here. There is a tendency to keep police-related cases within law enforcement, possibly for chain of custody issues, security issues and other reasons.

The work environment for me has been great. The caseload is significant as I wear two hats (cop and digital examiner), but the types of cases I get to work is awesome. Many of our cases make the news because they are so interesting.

Regarding pay, I am still paid the same rate by my agency regardless of my current assignment. As I work in a larger city in the northeastern part of the US, our pay is fairly competitive compared to the civilian sector. I don't know the pay rate for the civilian forensic examiners who work in our crime lab, however.

Hopefully I answered at least some of your questions. I may have made some oversimplifications here and there, but at least you have a perspective from someone on the other side of the pond.

 
Posted : 06/01/2016 10:18 pm
(@wotsits)
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Some interesting replies coming in here. One key difference I've noticed between forensics in law enforcement in the US Vs the UK is that in the US it appears most digital forensics are police officers who then go on to practice as a side except for in the very big federal agencies. Whereas in the UK every one of the different police forces has their own High Tech Crime Unit and few if any of the people working there are police officers, they are recruited specifically for forensics.

Would like to hear more from people.

One thing I wonder about is what is the approach when you have something that can't be examined properly? Say you have a new phone comes in that's encrypted and you don't have the technology to unlock it. Does it just get tossed back to the officer in case with a note saying no can do, or is there a record kept of everything that couldn't be examined and why and kept on for periodic reviews in future if and when the technology becomes available to access it?

 
Posted : 07/01/2016 12:50 pm
BraindeadVirtually
(@braindeadvirtually)
Posts: 115
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Some interesting replies coming in here. One key difference I've noticed between forensics in law enforcement in the US Vs the UK is that in the US it appears most digital forensics are police officers who then go on to practice as a side except for in the very big federal agencies. Whereas in the UK every one of the different police forces has their own High Tech Crime Unit and few if any of the people working there are police officers, they are recruited specifically for forensics.

I've just moved to UK LE CF following many years in the private sector. Nearly everyone I work with is a warranted officer but maybe my unit is atypical. Other observations

- the kit that I have to play with is insane, way better than anything I ever got in the private sector. If I need it, it's there.

- the salary is crap. Under half what I was getting in the private sector. But the hours are far better, overtime is paid/given back in holiday etc. There's a free gym. Swings and roundabouts, really.

- there is actual training budget here, the private sector at best has paid lip service to the notion of training staff since the crash at least.

Ultimately I really think it comes down to what you want to do with your working life - make money for rich people who couldn't care less about you, or make a difference - even a very small one - by helping to get some very bad people off the streets. You can't buy that kind of job satisfaction in the private sector.

 
Posted : 07/01/2016 6:00 pm
(@christ143uk)
Posts: 51
Trusted Member
 

Some interesting replies coming in here. One key difference I've noticed between forensics in law enforcement in the US Vs the UK is that in the US it appears most digital forensics are police officers who then go on to practice as a side except for in the very big federal agencies. Whereas in the UK every one of the different police forces has their own High Tech Crime Unit and few if any of the people working there are police officers, they are recruited specifically for forensics.

I've just moved to UK LE CF following many years in the private sector. Nearly everyone I work with is a warranted officer but maybe my unit is atypical. Other observations

- the kit that I have to play with is insane, way better than anything I ever got in the private sector. If I need it, it's there.

- the salary is crap. Under half what I was getting in the private sector. But the hours are far better, overtime is paid/given back in holiday etc. There's a free gym. Swings and roundabouts, really.

- there is actual training budget here, the private sector at best has paid lip service to the notion of training staff since the crash at least.

Ultimately I really think it comes down to what you want to do with your working life - make money for rich people who couldn't care less about you, or make a difference - even a very small one - by helping to get some very bad people off the streets. You can't buy that kind of job satisfaction in the private sector.

After working in both LE and the private sector I have to disagree with your comments, I think it depends completely on which company you go to

- The kit is way better in the private sector than it ever was with LE, if we need something we purchase it within the hour rather than waiting 6 months for it to go through a business meeting and failing because there is no budget

- I get the same pay to go to the private sector for much better/less hours, never expected to work overtime unless I want to. There was ZERO training budget in LE and everything was in-house by someone who just wanted a jolly day away from their desk so didn't care about teaching. In the private sector they have purchased me an Encase passport.

- First week it took me 1.5 hours to get to work, director let me change my hours so it only took 45 minutes. I was on a set shift pattern at LE and had to request flexible working if needed to change hours. Fully paid for xmas do including food, drinks, hotel room (LE had to organise and pay for their own)

- Every job I have ever done in the private sector has been on behalf of police forces and have been criminal cases so you can have the same satisfaction without the struggles of being in the public sector.

Don't get me wrong the public sector is a great start but not every private forensics company is the same. If you do your research and are good enough you will end up working for a company similar to mine if you don't research you will end up in a company as you described.

 
Posted : 08/01/2016 6:15 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
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Summing up redcat's and Christ143uk's reported experiences, the only possible outcome is to resolve to flippism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipism
to choose a career. 😯

jaclaz

 
Posted : 08/01/2016 7:40 pm
BraindeadVirtually
(@braindeadvirtually)
Posts: 115
Estimable Member
 

Summing up redcat's and Christ143uk's reported experiences, the only possible outcome is to resolve to flippism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipism
to choose a career. 😯

jaclaz

That's pretty much how I decided to take my last few jobs, with predictably random results. I can't recommend it.

 
Posted : 08/01/2016 7:42 pm
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