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Israel / In-train location tracking

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RolfGutmann
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Our regional state (St. Gallen) was hit by a confused suspect stabbing two people to death and spreading fire-advancing liquids inside a train wagon. As smoke rose out, the supect could be found
fast but rises the issue of train in-door location tracking by GSM-R.

As these repeaters relay all aspects of Cell Site Investigation (CSI) location tracking fail. The in-train GSM antennas relay multi-operatior traffic but connect to terrestrial different operators the technical layer to in-door locate a supect in a running train from timepoint 0 (9/11 call) to next railway station the train can be stopped (may the next few short-distance railway stations (often unmanned and far from police stations will be passed before the situation clears up) we assume for the research case that the train will be stopped after 12 minutes and passing at least 2 railway stations and many cell towers with all operators antennas. The aspect that many antennas nowadays are shared by all operators and PCRP are splitting Accounting aspects there is good chance that remaining 7 minutes to in-door locate a suspect is a new challenging target.

How to in-door locate a suspect in a running train and 7 minutes to Lawful Intercept (LI)?

Does anybody in Israel run an in-door location tracking of trains already?

 
Posted : 15/08/2016 2:27 pm
jaclaz
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… but rises the issue of train in-door location tracking by GSM-R…

Does it? 😯

Are people intentioned to stab people and put fire on trains required to carry a phone AND have it switched on?

Now, seriously, it is not like *anything* that happens on the Earth brings anyone (exception made for you of course) to think about GSM (or WiFi or GPS) positioning.

Particularly in this case - besides the possibility that the suspect did not carry a phone at all - were LI (sic) units already on the train?

Was there any doubt that the suspect was on the train?

I mean, if there was already a LI unit on the train, and the train does not stop, it is not really-really difficult to find the suspect and I (Intercept) him L (Lawfully).

On the other hand if there wasn't already a LI unit the train needs to stop to have the good guys board the train, again as long as the train does not slow down or stops it is quite difficult that the suspect can flee (of course he could well jump off the train, but that would very likely solve the problem without even the intervention of anyone).

In theory a SWAT team might well board the train while it is traveling - possibly at high speed - from a helicopter of course, but usually this is reserved to Hollywood movies (as our friends in the US have not electrified lines and very few tunnels), much more difficult in Switzerland or Italy.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 15/08/2016 9:45 pm
RolfGutmann
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In-train location tracking as a special area of in-door location tracking should be mastered for any case of crime in general. To save lives often is too late but advances should be possible to faster in-door locate suspects. If not by GSM-R the optical surveillance systems in-place today can also help to live 'watch inside' the train.

Facial recognition of FaceBook e.g. could enable to recognize a unknown suspect from a short distance. Cortana could also help. 7 minutes to resolve a suspect's name to his cell phone MSISDN and there to check the very last hours or minutes could help to clear the suspect's ambitions or relations to e.g. Islamic State. A single crime scene related to possible terror could also only be part of a orchestrated terror mega event.

So any xxINT of a suspect could help 'to connect the dots' (U.S. 9/11 report).

 
Posted : 15/08/2016 10:37 pm
jaclaz
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Look - in this specific case - you had a "normal" citizen (anonymous, not a "suspect") that boarded a train with a knife and some inflammable liquid, and put on fire a woman (burning also himself severely) and stabbed a couple of people that were attempting to stop him.

There is nothing seemingly - in this specific case - where having *whatever* (exact to the cm) positioning system would have helped in ANY way.

You had NO way to know which device (if ANY) to exactly get a position of.

You had NO way to know in advance (though face recognition) WHO the guy that went crazy was.

Once and only once the crime has been committed how hard is to identify a half burned, covered in blood, holding a knife subject?

Sure if you have all round camera coverage you will have a nice video of the crime (usefunl as evidence in trial) but it is not like you would be lacking - again in this specific case - eyewitnesses.

If it some kind of wishful thinking *like*
"it would be nice to know 24/7 where exactly - located with cm accuracy - every single person is in the country and having a camera pointed on him/her and knowing his/her identity"
it could be - once set aside the obvious "Big Brother" protests - something that could be useful, but in this specific case it wouldn't have made an ounce of difference.

At least from what has been published - again in this specific case - there is no connection whatsoever to terrorism.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 15/08/2016 11:02 pm
RolfGutmann
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Your aspects are fine, may I still do not agree.

Any crime becomes obvious crime just exactly at the moment the crime starts. Many suspects hide their intentions befor the case starts.

The delay of 9/11 services on one side is structural/organizational. But also technical. The very first moment its not obvious if this is a single event or part of bigger. Europe has changed since the refugee wave and ISIL is sleeping thousandfold. So kind of real to think about.

The technical mastering of running technologies I strive for. As working in LE its my duty to try
everything to master the tech layer. GSM-R is from my point of view under-mastered. Look at FF, nobody except trewmte (which is a coryphaeus) cares about the big topic of Mobile Broadband Networks including GSM-R.

Beside SWAT use FLIR systems or LIDAR. But these devices are not in masses available so the key is to learn from the infrastructure around the crime scene and not waiting for SWAT.

Tech is my assistant and the gyroscope (I am waiting for years to get this brilliant sensor for LE) the
sensor I dream of.

Back to the topic Is Italy able to live-watch inside trains?

 
Posted : 16/08/2016 12:42 am
jaclaz
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Posts: 5133
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Back to the topic Is Italy able to live-watch inside trains?

Able to or actually doing it?
I don't know.
I hope they are able to and I hope the are not doing it.

Maybe you could think of a way to revive the good ol' idea of tattooing an ID number on everyone's left forearm 😯 , since more than 60 years have passed since the first implementations of the idea, you could think of upgrading it to a GPS/GSM positioning enabled implant, this way you could have the exact whereabouts of all the population.

I am pretty sure that making the implant to all visitors is a logistic problem that the Swiss can easily solve (just like you provide the "vignette" for motorways at the border).

You could have also different kinds of implants, a simple one for Swiss citizens just providing position and one for visitors and refugees, the latter connected to an under-the-skin led array forming the letter V or R in red on the forehead of the subject when remotely activated… (yes, I do like Hawthorne's masterpiece)

jaclaz

 
Posted : 16/08/2016 2:52 pm
RolfGutmann
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I do like Hawthorne's masterpiece too -)

 
Posted : 16/08/2016 3:21 pm
RolfGutmann
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Posts: 1185
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Observerd regional train compositions running on the mentioned train area posses on top of the roofs two kind of antennas Radio of railway company (bigger shark fin antenna, also on public transport in general CH) and GSM antennas (smaller shark fin antenna). These antennas are off-center mounted aprox. 1m linear distance.

How look GSM antennas on other countries railway trains? Can anybody provide pics or infos?

Very appreciated!

 
Posted : 17/08/2016 11:19 am
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
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Well, it is GSM-R not GSM.

The Swiss use the same (Italian, but I am pretty sure you can find the corresponding German one)
https://www.ffs.ch/content/sbb/it/desktop/sbb-konzern/sbb-als-geschaeftspartner/zugang-zum-bahn-netz/telecom/gsm-r/_jcr_content/contentPar/downloadlist/downloadList/opuscolo_gsm_r_.spooler.download.pdf

As it is an European "standard" for raylway communications (including ERTMS/ETCS/whatever, i.e. wireless control of traffic and positions of trains)

This might interest you
http//www.crt.unige.it/IT/CIFI/2014/CorsoGenova/Lezione7a.pdf

Anyway the antennas are (cannot say if exclusively) these ones by RAC/LEA
http//www.leagroup.it/rac-lea-case_histories.asp
http//www.leagroup.it/download/catalogues/GSM-R_AND_RAILWAY_APPLICATIONS.pdf

jaclaz

 
Posted : 17/08/2016 1:59 pm
RolfGutmann
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Posts: 1185
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Topic starter
 

The shark fin antennas in regional trains (our case) look different and more like the ones from Selecom

http//www.selecom.fr/en/coverage-railway-onboard

 
Posted : 17/08/2016 9:45 pm
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