mitch wrote:

I have Guidance's Bag. Very Very good and imho worth the money. but only one problem with it its too small not wide enough. mitch

What do you thin would be the perfect size? I can get them manufactured to any size or shape, so let me know as i believe it will benefit the community.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon

Hope you are well, have you seen the faraday bag from guidance

Mitch

Prior to faraday bags, what were we using? Well, actually, nothing at all. Because we didn't need anything.

The interpreted requirement of isolation from network only came in when some interpreted, following RIPA, that unlawful interception would occur if an SMS was received during examination. The interpretation requiring isolation was rolled out and extended to the seizure procedure.

The above interpretation was flawed because SMS text messages were not in the course of transmission once received at the handset. There are some who still try to suggest the interpretation for the need for isolation is required because of SMS text messages but the SMS argument about interception really holds no weight.

On another point, perhaps technically and legally, using a faraday bag, may amount to "interference with goods". Some examples:

1.0) because there is an implicit/explicit admission suggesting it's OK to push keys to examine the hanset whilst the handset is in faraday bag. Err NO it is not OK. The matter of avoiding interfering with goods has gone on long before the mooted idea of having faraday bags was raised. One characteristic of a polythene exhibit bag is its flexibility and the ability to manipulate the content/s of what is inside the bag.

For mobile phones: the handset should be switched OFF on seizure and left to the examiner in the lab to deal with gaining access for examination purposes:

1.1) having one or both party consent?
1.2) collateral intrusion?
1.3) examination within the specified time of seizure?
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.
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1.20) if others have pushed keys whilst handset is switched ON in faraday bag, which data does the examiner attribute to the seizing or investigating officer and which data originally resided there prior to seizure?

2.0) Placing a switched ON mobile into a faraday bag and blocking its signals, it has been said may amounts to interference where data alters in the memory devices (due to failed updates, personalisation etc) because of using the faraday bag.

3.0) Apparently, the new Wireless Telegraphy Act, it has been said, makes it unlawful to deliberately block signals other than in a specified manner at a fixed geographical location. Faraday bags and their contents are not fixed location, not specified and as pointed out to me the meaning of fixed location was not intended to imply the inside world of a faraday bag.

4.0) There are some who argue that putting switched ON handsets into faraday bags was to stop PIN/Password locks being activated because of power down, no longer holds weight since RIPA-III.

There is much more that can be said on this topic, but would make this thread too long.

Simon started out this thread seeking thoughts about the use of faraday bags. I raise the negative arguments about using faraday bags, because no one else did so. Also, no one mentioned anything forensic standards or about the integrity of data.

trewmte wrote:

Simon started out this thread seeking thoughts about the use of faraday bags. I raise the negative arguments about using faraday bags, because no one else did so. Also, no one mentioned anything forensic standards or about the integrity of data.

Trewmte,

You raise some good points and knowing your standing in the industry, they must be taken as such.
There are several key benefits in my belief, such as not losing time and dates. There is also the speed issue, (PUK codes can be difficult to get hold of. By bot turning the phone off, this is no longer an issue).

There are many more benefits of using a faraday bag, but I suggest I will be overstepping the advertising bounds of the forum!

Regards,

Simon

_nik_ wrote:

Guidance Software's Neutrino product also comes with a bag with window! Anybody tried that out yet?

I have seen it. It looks impressive, but you have to use Guidance's kit to use it. It gets very expensive then.

My kit is cheap, totally flexible, (will fit into a pocket or utility belt), and is reusable.

Simon

trewmte wrote:

Simon started out this thread seeking thoughts about the use of faraday bags. I raise the negative arguments about using faraday bags, because no one else did so. Also, no one mentioned anything forensic standards or about the integrity of data.

Trewmte,

Your points are of course valid, I would however like to you move forward on the final point, that of integrity of data and forensic standards?

Simon

I'm not sure the PUK thing is such a problem - but your point would definately be valid for the handset codes which arent stored by the network, so would be totally reliant on nice mr badguy giving you it (ripa pt3?).
Although isn't that risking losing the date and time on the phone by being powered on until examination, ie totally flat battery from trying to acquire a signal at full power.
Swings and roundabouts i guess

Rich2005,

I agree, there are good and bad points. The only genuine downside that I can see is that the battery will probably loose its power quicker. However, the positive side is very simple to see.
Extra information on the phones
Immediate, network free access to the phones
A unique 'Traige system' for phones
The ability to re-use the faraday bags.
...
...
...

Simon

mitch wrote:

Hi Simon Hope you are well, have you seen the faraday bag from guidance Mitch

Mitch, I have seen the bag.

I have also been told that it only works as a faraday bag when it is powered up! If it is not powered up, then the bag doesnt inhibit the signal, therefore calls can get through. I know of this from a friend who told me about it happening to him!

Regards,

Simon

xx0033 wrote:

I never thought to mention, but the bag we have worked on has a window, enabling the investigating officer to have a look at the evidence too. For those who are interested, please pm me and I will send them the technical specs over. Regards, Simon

Looking at reasonable observations, would the faraday bags come with a clear printed "Warning" on the front of the bag not to attempt to interrogate the switched ON handset whilst it is in the faraday bag and given the flexible nature of the bag that if the bag is not handled carefully anything placed on the bag could potentially cause:

- switching off the mobile phone
- pushing number keys
- activating key lock
- causing LND/LNR/LMN dialling attempts
and so on

?

As a suggestion, will you have a non-flexible sleeve to be placed over the switched ON handset before placing in the faraday bag to stop interrogation or accidental keys being pushed whilst the handset is in the bag?

I am at this stage thinking through how at first instance the person seizing the device and the person who puts the device into an exhibits bag (not always one and the same person) having to, at court, account for any changed data.