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Is University The Only Way? (UK)

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(@protocol)
Posts: 7
Active Member
Topic starter
 

Hi.

I have just finished my second year studying Computer Forensics at University at BSc Hons level. I haven't actually passed the year and am considering whether it is worthwhile me continuing my course or going elsewhere (different Uni/field). With the course being BSc it means that I do a variety amount of different modules/subjects. This is where my problems are because I am struggling with the non-forensic modules (reasons being too hard to understand, not being able to get any help with my studies, and also in some cases, a lack of interest). I knew what the modules were when I applied for the course but didn't think it would be as bad as it is at the moment. I have the chance to pass my current year providing I pass my re-sits. However, should I not pass them I'm fairly sure I'll have to retake the whole year again (not something I want to do seeing as I feel I'm wasting my time and money). Is there anyway of getting into the Computer Forensics field without going to University?. I could switch University but the tuition fees have recently gone up and I'd have just wasted two years. I know my local Colleges don't do anything up to the standards of Computer Forensics so that isn't an option. Preferably I'm after a way into the field of Computer Forensics that means I just concentrate on forensics and nothing else (sort of like an MSc but for undergraduates).

Thanks.

 
Posted : 22/08/2007 10:11 pm
az_gcfa
(@az_gcfa)
Posts: 116
Estimable Member
 

IMHO
The University is not the only way into Computer Forensics. Depending upon your background and training, you will need some positive points to sale your services/skills. This may come via Technical Certifications and educational certifications. Generally, a technical certification alone will not you in the door. You probably will need, SSCP, CISSP, CISA, CISM. These certifications require work experience in the Security field.
Generally, I've found that a BS, whether in Criminal Justice, Law Enforcement, Information Security, Computer Science or Computer Forensics will open more doors. They prove that you can learn and are fairly intelligent. Technical Certifications can be obtained in mere weeks and barely denote technical proficiency.
I'm going back to school to complete my BS Degree and I have 30 years of IT experience with 15 years in Security.
You could elect to take POST (police officer training) and try getting in via that approach. I thought about that approach at one time, I could handle the academic and handwork, but 17 weeks of all that physical training – I decide to pass since I seen 50 come and go!
Too bad life does not come with any guarantee's!

 
Posted : 23/08/2007 10:07 am
 kern
(@kern)
Posts: 67
Trusted Member
 

uh! deja vu ! lol.

hi protocol. 2 yrs in, 1 left - don't fail 'til you fail.

MSc like most courses, aren't totally 'clean', they also contain shared course material, a source of much angst for a colleague who just sat his.
Whatever course you go on will be similar in that vein.
Leaving now would be like jumping the frying pan to land in the fire.

Weather it out. if you fail resits, deal with it then. For now, concentrate on not failing them.
Certs like EnCE and ACE are seen by employers as supplementary to a degree, not a replacement. I've heard some Co's wouldn't employ someone even with an MSc unless the candidate already had EnCE/ACE training. Merchantable skill, and it saves the Co the fee's associated with getting them trained, and then the candidate maybe skipping off to another company.

incidentally, what (non related) modules are you finding so difficult?

Kern

 
Posted : 23/08/2007 4:15 pm
azrael
(@azrael)
Posts: 656
Honorable Member
 

Hey -)

I didn't do too well in my first degree either - similarly to you, I found the peripheral courses the problem ( in my case Mathematics - n+1 dimensions seemed a little pointless to me … oops ). What I did was switch to doing a "general science" degree - it wasn't as prestigious as the joint honours that I'd started off on, but, in terms of long term benefit was well worth it. I got to pick and choose courses that were of interest to me including criminal law, contract law, electronics and industrial management. ( Those were the serious ones - I also did Oceanography and Geomorphology for fun - missed out on the field trip to Jamaica though ! wink ).

But the key thing that I did, that I honestly think made all the difference, was get a job in the IT industry - I worked late/weekend anti-social tech support shifts at a local ISP. When I came to apply for my first "real" job - all they cared about was this real world experience - not the end result of the degree.

I'm a late arrival in Forensics, doing my Masters now, I worked up the IT Security ladder CISSP, BS7799, Penetration Testing Qualifications etc. and my personal feeling is that, in a lot of respects, a good grounding in computing/administration/security is fundamental to being a good forensic expert. There are things that are infinitely simpler to understand - especially with network forensics - when you have hands on experience of things ( SMTP, Routing, TCP/IP, etc. )

There are entry level positions in Forensics in the UK that I have seen advertised - and to be honest, as a graduate the salaries would be pretty much on a par with anything else - where more of a requirement is a desire to learn & an IT background than specific Forensic Knowledge.

One thing is for example - you can't get an ENCE without experience anyway - so they will train you up to this level.

Call up and chat to some of the recruitment agents who bounce around the recruitment forum … I've spoken to David Sullivan before - he's really good & knows his market well. He may be able to better advise where you go from here.

Good Luck. -D

 
Posted : 23/08/2007 4:19 pm
azrael
(@azrael)
Posts: 656
Honorable Member
 

MSc like most courses, aren't totally 'clean', they also contain shared course material, a source of much angst for a colleague who just sat his.

Good point though … I've done Corporate Security so far, and still have Programming to go which aren't _strictly_ Forensics …

 
Posted : 23/08/2007 4:21 pm
(@protocol)
Posts: 7
Active Member
Topic starter
 

incidentally, what (non related) modules are you finding so difficult?

Kern

I'm qwerty from the other forum wink
The non-related modules I struggle with is the networking and operating system modules, and the Java programming (Java is the vain of my life at the moment). I was forced to do the Java module this year despite not having passed Java in my first year. The module tutor for the Java module has actually been in New Zealand for the past 8 months and the person who took over her hasn't explained things really well or hardly ever had spare time to tuition me one-to-one (working at my own speed and not having to try keeping up with the speed everyone else worked at).

I think the main problem is that I'm too used to College where I studied IT courses for 3 years before leaving to go to Uni. At College, there was always someone around willing to help me where as at University, I am expected to read books for any help I can't get in class (of course the work at College was a lot easier too!). Sometimes books are not written very well and are hard to understand. Surely tuition fees are paid so that students can actually get some tuition?. Also at College I was always able to get my worked checked very regularly to "keep me on track". However, this doesn't happen at Uni. I keep getting told that "they are doing the work for me" and this is one of the reasons that I struggle and don't get very good grades because I don't know how good my work is or if it answers the question(s).

To all
If I did stick with my course, what's the chance of me finding work?. I see a lot of posts advertised by David but they seem to be for senior and not junior positions. The adverts posted by him also seem to be for the London area but I live in the North-East where the only Computer Forensics company is Sapphire who never seem to recruit much. A tutor on my course said he didn't get a job in the Computer Forensics field for 8 months (which is quite a wait after graduating).

 
Posted : 23/08/2007 5:56 pm
(@protocol)
Posts: 7
Active Member
Topic starter
 

incidentally, what (non related) modules are you finding so difficult?

Kern

I'm qwerty from the other forum wink
The non-related modules I struggle with is the networking and operating system modules, and the Java programming (Java is the vain of my life at the moment). I was forced to do the Java module this year despite not having passed Java in my first year. The module tutor for the Java module has actually been in New Zealand for the past 8 months and the person who took over her hasn't explained things really well or hardly ever had spare time to tuition me one-to-one (working at my own speed and not having to try keeping up with the speed everyone else worked at).

I think the main problem is that I'm too used to College where I studied IT courses for 3 years before leaving to go to Uni. At College, there was always someone around willing to help me where as at University, I am expected to read books for any help I can't get in class (of course the work at College was a lot easier too!). Sometimes books are not written very well and are hard to understand. Surely tuition fees are paid so that students can actually get some tuition?. Also at College I was always able to get my worked checked very regularly to "keep me on track". However, this doesn't happen at Uni. I keep getting told that "they are doing the work for me" and this is one of the reasons that I struggle and don't get very good grades because I don't know how good my work is or if it answers the question(s).

To all
If I did stick with my course, what's the chance of me finding work?. I see a lot of posts advertised by David but they seem to be for senior and not junior positions. The adverts posted by him also seem to be for the London area but I live in the North-East where the only Computer Forensics company is Sapphire who never seem to recruit much. A tutor on my course said he didn't get a job in the Computer Forensics field for 8 months (which is quite a wait after graduating).

If you do not take the time to learn in the programming courses now I feel you will regret it later. Most of the things you learn within any of those classes can be applied to any modern language. The theory you get will be much more important than the syntax.

When you advance to the point that you will need to create your own tools you will be very happy that the groundwork had been laid years ago.

Hm. I'm sure there subject's that people always struggle with and Java programming is mine. As I said above, I find it hard to learn things from reading books and need to be actually taught things. If I can't get help from my tutors how am I supposed to progress?. I know that Java can be used to create my own tools, and I'm sure I need to do that in my final year (IF I get there), but I don't know how they expect me to pass.

 
Posted : 24/08/2007 1:52 am
azrael
(@azrael)
Posts: 656
Honorable Member
 

<shudders> Java … Euuch … </shudders> I could never get to grips with it either.

I'm fortunate - my progamming course is in C which I allready know - on Windows, which I don't … But I find that the resources online are very useful, and often, in tutorial form, are quick and easy to follow. You should find the same for Java. The Sun site contains quite a lot as well

http//java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/essentials/

Alternatively, I've been told that the Head First series from O'Reilly is great

http//www.amazon.co.uk/Head-First-Java/dp/0596009208/ref=cm_taf_title_featured?ie=UTF8&tag=tellafriend-20

They are written in a substantially different style to ordinary textbooks which makes the subject matter more accessible. A friend has one that he is using for Project Management - and gets on with it really well …

Personally I've given up on Java and am using Objective C, but that's just 'cos I'm weird 😉

Networking and OS modules are going to be fundamental though … I'd be happy to talk about networking if you'd like & might be able to help out on OS stuff - e-mail me direct on azrael at open-forensics dot com if you feel like it -)

Good Luck - stick with it -)

Oh and by the way - call David and chat with him - he might

(a) know of someone in your area - forensic recruiting is a small field
(b) be able to advise you on what employers are _actually_ looking for
© put your CV on his database incase _he_ gets something that is ideal for you - happens -)

 
Posted : 24/08/2007 12:59 pm
(@protocol)
Posts: 7
Active Member
Topic starter
 

&lt;shudders&gt; Java … Euuch … &lt;/shudders&gt; I could never get to grips with it either.

I'm fortunate - my progamming course is in C which I allready know - on Windows, which I don't … But I find that the resources online are very useful, and often, in tutorial form, are quick and easy to follow. You should find the same for Java. The Sun site contains quite a lot as well

http//java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/essentials/

Alternatively, I've been told that the Head First series from O'Reilly is great

http//www.amazon.co.uk/Head-First-Java/dp/0596009208/ref=cm_taf_title_featured?ie=UTF8&tag=tellafriend-20

They are written in a substantially different style to ordinary textbooks which makes the subject matter more accessible. A friend has one that he is using for Project Management - and gets on with it really well …

Personally I've given up on Java and am using Objective C, but that's just 'cos I'm weird 😉

Networking and OS modules are going to be fundamental though … I'd be happy to talk about networking if you'd like &amp; might be able to help out on OS stuff - e-mail me direct on azrael at open-forensics dot com if you feel like it -)

Good Luck - stick with it -)

Oh and by the way - call David and chat with him - he might

(a) know of someone in your area - forensic recruiting is a small field
(b) be able to advise you on what employers are _actually_ looking for
© put your CV on his database incase _he_ gets something that is ideal for you - happens -)

Thanks for the info. I've actually passed the OS module (by 1 mark) so don't need any help. It was just one of my weaker modules. Thanks anyway though. Depending on the results I get from my resits, I may need to contact you regarding my networking module.

I'm pretty sure David visited my University this year and had a chat with us. I wasn't really sure of how things worked though. They find you the jobs so they would require a certain percentage of my wage right?.

I'm due to speak to the career's advisor for my course when term starts again as I'm wanting advice on what to do when I have graduated and what I should do if I fail the year (as I don't really want to retake the whole year again knowing I would probably find myself in the same predicament next summer).

 
Posted : 24/08/2007 5:33 pm
azrael
(@azrael)
Posts: 656
Honorable Member
 

Depending on the results I get from my resits, I may need to contact you regarding my networking module.

No problem - any time -)

I'm pretty sure David visited my University this year and had a chat with us. I wasn't really sure of how things worked though. They find you the jobs so they would require a certain percentage of my wage right?.

Without getting into the exact contractural arangements in play

No, your wage will never be affected by the use of an agent. You will never pay them anything. ( Except sending them a bottle of wine at Christmas if you think they did a good job … -) )

It is more complicated than that, especially if you get into contract or start as a contractor and switch to permanent, but even so, at the end of the day, you agree the rate that you are going to work for in advance, and that is the end of the story - you will get that, you don't need to pay the agent or agency anything out of that money.

http//www.worksmart.org.uk/career/viewquestion.php?eny=44 says

Will using a recruitment agency cost me money?

No. If an agency asks for payment, find another one. Recruitment agencies in the UK are paid by the employers for whom they provide suitable candidates. Usually the employer pays the agency a fee equivalent to a percentage of the new employee’s starting salary. In the case of temporary workers, the employer often pays the employee’s wages to the recruitment agency, which then passes on an agreed rate to the employee, keeping a percentage for themselves. If you’re in this situation, be sure you know how much you’ll be getting for a job before you sign on the line.

In general terms, Forensic work is largely permanent, and I would certainly suggest that your first position or two in _any_ sector should be permanent, and stick with each for at least 2 years.

-)

 
Posted : 24/08/2007 6:11 pm
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