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Acting as a police agent once you contact law enforcement?

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(@audio)
Posts: 149
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

In the U.S. private citizens might have to adhere to some privacy laws, but not the 4th amendment like the police do. I read a while ago that if you get hacked and you contact law enforcement, that you could be seen as acting as a police agent, and thus must adhere to the 4th amendment.

So it was recommend that you collect as much evidence as you legally can before contacting law enforcement. Is that good advice, and if not, how much do you have to cooperate with law enforcement before you are seen as acting as a police agent.

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 5:45 am
u2bigman
(@u2bigman)
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
 

Perhaps it is best to speak with (and pay) an attorney to advise on such legal questions?

Unlikely that a judge will want to hear, "But some guys on the computer told me I could do this!"

My $0.02.

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 8:37 am
(@trewmte)
Posts: 1877
Noble Member
 

Perhaps you might want to align your "hypothetical" point with the news story at the link below and decide what it is that you are "hypothetically" trying to achieve for this "hypothetical" investigation.

The FCC agents decided on a cover story that they were part of a Tennessee Bureau of Investigation Meth Task Force investigation. Now they might be charged with impersonating police officers….

http//www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9007550

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 1:37 pm
(@audio)
Posts: 149
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

@u2bigman I'm a student, so I can't send an email to the legal department.

@trewmte I don't find that link very relevant, but it was interesting…

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 5:05 pm
(@bithead)
Posts: 1206
Noble Member
 

In the U.S. private citizens might have to adhere to some privacy laws, but not the 4th amendment like the police do. I read a while ago that if you get hacked and you contact law enforcement, that you could be seen as acting as a police agent, and thus must adhere to the 4th amendment.

So it was recommend that you collect as much evidence as you legally can before contacting law enforcement. Is that good advice, and if not, how much do you have to cooperate with law enforcement before you are seen as acting as a police agent.

IaNaL, however contacting LE does not make you an agent. It is only when encouraged to act by LE that this is an issue.

EXCERPT

COMPUTER HACKER IN FOREIGN COUNTRY
IS A STATE ACTOR FOR FOURTH
AMENDMENT PURPOSES, DISTRICT COURT
HOLDS USE OF SUBSEVEN TROJAN HORSE
TO SEARCH HOME COMPUTERS FOR CHILD
PORN VIOLATES THE FOURTH AMENDMENT

The Internet makes it fairly easy for a private
person to hack into another person's computer
and look through their private files. Law
enforcement agents occasionally receive
contacts from hackers who have hacked into
computers and found child pornography without
identifying themselves, the hackers report that
they have found the child porn, and the police
then use the "anonymous tip" to get probable
cause to obtain a search warrant and search the
target's house and seize their computer. Under
traditional Fourth Amendment doctrine, this
doesn't violate the Fourth Amendment so long as
the government does not enourage or facilitate
the hacker's conduct, because the hacker is
private actor, rather than the government. See,
e.g., United States v. Kennedy, 81 F. Supp.2d
1103, 1112 (D. Kan. 2000).

From a couple of books on my shelf
See also United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109, 113 (1984); United States v. Paige, 136 F.3d 1012, 1017 (5th Cir. 1998); United States v. Pervaz 118 F.3d 1, 6 (1st Cir. 1997); United States v. Smythe, 84 F.3d 1240, 1242-1243 (10th Cir. 1996); United States v. McAllister, 18 F.3d 1412, 1417-1418 (7th Cir. 1994); United STates v. Malbrough, 922 F.2d 458, 461-462 (8th Cir. 1990); United States v. Miller, 688 F.2d 652, 657 (9th Cir. 1982); United States v. Barth, 26 F. Supp. 2d 929, 935-936 (W.D. Tex. 1998).

See also United States v. Hall, 142 F.3d 988, 993 (7th Cir. 1998) finding that computer technician, while repairing defendants PC, noticed computer files contained CP (IIoC) and contacted police, had conducted a private search that did not implicate Fourth Amendment.

See also Searching and Seizing Computers and Obtaining Electronic Evidence in Criminal Investigations

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 5:09 pm
Jamie
(@jamie)
Posts: 1288
Moderator
 

The S&S manual referenced by BitHead is a worthwhile (although lengthy) read and covers this issue.

Jamie

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 6:28 pm
(@audio)
Posts: 149
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Perfect, I'm reading through those links/rulings now BitHead, thanks!

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 6:29 pm
(@bithead)
Posts: 1206
Noble Member
 

Perfect, I'm reading through those links/rulings now BitHead, thanks!

I see that you have also posted some other "homework" questions, where are you going to school and what are you taking?

Also what are your current references/text books? I find this a handy reference (albeit a little dated)
E-commerce Law & Business
By Mark E. Plotkin, Bert Wells, Kurt A. Wimmer
Published by Aspen Publishers Online, 2003
ISBN 0735541477, 9780735541474

As to your other two questions, there has been plenty written on exceptions to the hearsay rule and FRE in regard to computer records. Check out some of the recently written papers on eDiscovery.

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 7:21 pm
(@trewmte)
Posts: 1877
Noble Member
 

After seeing you agree with Bithead comments, is that what you meant Audio?

Your comments were a bit cryptic, so we in the office were thinking that you had done a bit of hacking, perhaps passed yourself off as a police officer so as to cover your tracks, because you were handling an investigation, and may have got caught. Hence our post about people pretending to be police officer when you weren't.

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 10:10 pm
(@audio)
Posts: 149
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

BitHead I'm majoring in Information Security, but the questions I have were from my own reading of various books. I think the questions I have will probably be answered after I'm done reading the links you have provided. Thanks )

trewmte No I was asking the question as someone who is into Information Security (detection and response), not as a criminal. )

 
Posted : 16/08/2008 10:26 pm
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