Forensics V Human R...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Forensics V Human Rights

16 Posts
9 Users
0 Likes
1,444 Views
(@lemmyrocks)
Posts: 5
Active Member
Topic starter
 

Hi I am new to this site and thought I would open proceedings by opening a can of worms.

Can Computer Forensics co-exist with Human Rights/Civil Liberties?

In the context of constantly changing laws regarding use of certain software utilities, Police being able to "hack" citizens PC's, the use of anti forensics utilites, US laws (and probably UK) on data encryption, and the RIPA that states you can be jailed for not giving up your password.

I am currently studying for my CCNA certification with a view to specialising in Information Security and the use of Forensic techniques to identify breaches. And given that most hacking tools etc are network admin tools in the wrong hands I really would like to get as broad a range viewpoints from both those in the field of Forensics and those with a general interest in the subject.

As they say in exams Discuss. D

 
Posted : 23/02/2009 5:42 pm
(@lemmyrocks)
Posts: 5
Active Member
Topic starter
 

I will take that as a resounding NO then. D

 
Posted : 27/02/2009 7:21 pm
(@seanmcl)
Posts: 700
Honorable Member
 

Can Computer Forensics co-exist with Human Rights/Civil Liberties?

I am not sure what is meant by the question. Computer forensics, like any other science, seeks to understand the truth. Like a hammer, it is amoral but it can be used for immoral purposes.

If you are talking, specifically, about surveillance, that is another story and, quite frankly, a thorny one because it often involves balancing individual rights with the protection of society as a whole. Those issues, however, are debated by legislators.

 
Posted : 27/02/2009 7:38 pm
(@dficsi)
Posts: 283
Reputable Member
 

Human rights is a sticky area. If, for example, you are a parent and your child has been abducted, and the suspect had an encrypted hard drive that may contain the location of your child, should the guy be made to give his password?
Is his human right to privacy more important than the child's human rights?

 
Posted : 27/02/2009 9:22 pm
(@larrydaniel)
Posts: 229
Reputable Member
 

I think you guys are confusing human rights with civil liberties. They are not the same thing.

Unless of course you are asking if it is okay to torture someones to get their encryption password. That would be a human rights issue.

Forcing that person to give up the encryption password via a court order would be an attack on their civil liberties as you are making them participate in establishing their guilt. In the US we have the 5th amendment that protects someone from self-incrimination.

 
Posted : 01/03/2009 11:57 am
(@trewmte)
Posts: 1877
Noble Member
 

I think you guys are confusing human rights with civil liberties. They are not the same thing.

Unless of course you are asking if it is okay to torture someones to get their encryption password. That would be a human rights issue.

Forcing that person to give up the encryption password via a court order would be an attack on their civil liberties as you are making them participate in establishing their guilt.

Good points Larry

In the US we have the 5th amendment that protects someone from self-incrimination.

Over here they call it

You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

 
Posted : 01/03/2009 2:56 pm
(@seanmcl)
Posts: 700
Honorable Member
 

I think you guys are confusing human rights with civil liberties. They are not the same thing.

True, I suppose, but not really relevant. Human rights are a matter of philosophy, civil liberties are the legal embodiments of those rights to which there is general agreement. The Bill of Rights is really about civil liberties although the basis for these are the rights that one does not give up through their consent to be governed.

The torture argument is a bit of a canard. If I have a right against self-incrimination it doesn't matter whether you torture me or simply put me in prison or slap me with a penalty, you are still violating my right to self-incrimination plus some other rights (liberties) as well, such as that against unreasonable search and seizure, habeas corpus, etc. Legally, these are all issues of civil liberties though the concept of what is a human right underlies them.

 
Posted : 01/03/2009 6:15 pm
(@lemmyrocks)
Posts: 5
Active Member
Topic starter
 

The whole issue surrounding human rights/civil liberties is undoubtedly a vast and complicated area. As far as I was aware there is no right in the UK to protect against self-incrimination hence the change of the caution to the the one quoted by trewmte. Which used to be you have the right to remain silent etc etc. There seems to be a huge move under the current govt in the UK for criminals to just give themselves up. Something that I think is ludicrous. The amount of legislation this govt is bringing in to supposedly make it easier to detect and prosecute criminals I think is a very dangerous game as it will only make determined criminals more determined to remain undetected.

For example the amount of CCTV we have in our towns and cities which undoubtedly helps (in some instances) to keep criminal activities in monitored areas down. There was a case recently of high powered cameras being installed prior to planning consent being granted which where placed too close to residential homes and provided operators with a means of spying if things happened to be quiet. Also the use of a DNA database, which uses have changed vastly since it was first introduced is another point. Any one suspected of a crime can be placed in the database without even being convicted or even going as far as a trial. Again recent cases taken to Strasbourg have had some people removed from the database, but it seems you only get taken off if you fight your corner and not as a matter of course or procedure.
The RIPA (I think thats the correct name) thing which means you can go to prison for not giving up passwords to encrypted or other files etc held on your computer and the law that was passed allowing the police to hack into citizens computers without a warrant is continuing this worrying trend.

I know I have probably wandered of track a bit, but where does it all lead. Are we going to be living in an Orwellian nightmare? The UK and US govts (lets not forget The Patriot Act) travel the world sometimes invading countries trying to instill "democracy" (maybe that should be hypocrisy)and threaten countries that have a less than perfect record on human rights/civil liberties when perhaps they should have a closer inspection of what they themselves are doing. (Jeez I didn't realise I was so political).

I have recently spent a lot of time using utilities which to be honest I am not sure about their legal use or if I am leaving myself open in any way. Programs like TrueCrypt, Tracks Eraser Pro, Stegano's Privacy Suite etc and some password cracking software. I have set up a 50GB secure drive on an external drive filled it with files that are then encrypted and used a random password (which the software claims cannot be cracked by Secret Services) and have been attempting to crack the password. So if my computer was to be siezed for some reason and I cannot provide the password to the secure drive will I be wearing a suit covered in arrows? It all seems a bit hit and miss to me.

 
Posted : 02/05/2009 3:14 am
(@lemmyrocks)
Posts: 5
Active Member
Topic starter
 

The whole issue surrounding human rights/civil liberties is undoubtedly a vast and complicated area. As far as I was aware there is no right in the UK to protect against self-incrimination hence the change of the caution to the the one quoted by trewmte. Which used to be you have the right to remain silent etc etc. There seems to be a huge move under the current govt in the UK for criminals to just give themselves up. Something that I think is ludicrous. The amount of legislation this govt is bringing in to supposedly make it easier to detect and prosecute criminals I think is a very dangerous game as it will only make determined criminals more determined to remain undetected.

For example the amount of CCTV we have in our towns and cities which undoubtedly helps (in some instances) to keep criminal activities in monitored areas down. There was a case recently of high powered cameras being installed prior to planning consent being granted which where placed too close to residential homes and provided operators with a means of spying if things happened to be quiet. Also the use of a DNA database, which uses have changed vastly since it was first introduced is another point. Any one suspected of a crime can be placed in the database without even being convicted or even going as far as a trial. Again recent cases taken to Strasbourg have had some people removed from the database, but it seems you only get taken off if you fight your corner and not as a matter of course or procedure.
The RIPA (I think thats the correct name) thing which means you can go to prison for not giving up passwords to encrypted or other files etc held on your computer and the law that was passed allowing the police to hack into citizens computers without a warrant is continuing this worrying trend.

I know I have probably wandered of track a bit, but where does it all lead. Are we going to be living in an Orwellian nightmare? The UK and US govts (lets not forget The Patriot Act) travel the world sometimes invading countries trying to instill "democracy" (maybe that should be hypocrisy)and threaten countries that have a less than perfect record on human rights/civil liberties when perhaps they should have a closer inspection of what they themselves are doing. (Jeez I didn't realise I was so political).

I have recently spent a lot of time using utilities which to be honest I am not sure about their legal use or if I am leaving myself open in any way. Programs like TrueCrypt, Tracks Eraser Pro, Stegano's Privacy Suite etc and some password cracking software. I have set up a 50GB secure drive on an external drive filled it with files that are then encrypted and used a random password (which the software claims cannot be cracked by Secret Services) and have been attempting to crack the password. So if my computer was to be siezed for some reason and I cannot provide the password to the secure drive will I be wearing a suit covered in arrows? It all seems a bit hit and miss to me.

 
Posted : 02/05/2009 3:23 am
Beetle
(@beetle)
Posts: 318
Reputable Member
 

Was there not a recent case about an 'event' at the US - Canada border (Vermont, or some point around there I think) and a password issue that ended up that the accused quashed a subpoena to surrender his password???

Sound familiar? I think it is referenced as Boucher.

 
Posted : 21/05/2009 10:36 pm
Page 1 / 2
Share: