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TinyBrain
(@tinybrain)
Active Member

Our team got an expert from outside to better understand 5G first to get access to the cryptographic layer. In these talks this expert recommended to deeper look into 5G NE-DC with a 5G NR as MCG and an E-UTRAN eNB as SCG. If a UE is in NE-DC mode the positioning by technical nature of this dual-connection becomes very accurate in the sub-meter range. This guy told us that if we have a 3D model of the geographical area it eaven would be possible to locate a UE with a single 5G NR in sub-meter range if we would follow the Single Anchor Positioning approach.

Same time he showed us how a Fake Base Station FBS of a 5G NR in MITM constellation can undermine any conclusion making of a location - which is obvious. As I by several posts on FF started is our approach of detecting a FBS by the crypto layer. This guy also reported that on Europol and Interpol no MBB experts really are so for me FF is the right platform to ask for help. Our board also recommended this to our team.

So, why are on FF passive observers-only to posters in a ratio of 99.5%? I know for sure there are MBB experts here, but nobody is hanging-in in helping to first understand the 5G MBB and then - my main job - to discover the crypto layer of 5G MBB to detect FBSs.

I am a cryptographer and cannot become an MBB expert to do my job. I - kindly - ask for real help. Not - read the whitepapers yourself. The complexity of 5G MBB seems to be out-of-range, like buffer overflow this expert told us. Unfortunately this expert is too busy to teach us.

Please, help our team to understand 5G for we can think on the crypto layer. Toda.

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Posted : 17/04/2019 12:14 am
TinyBrain
(@tinybrain)
Active Member

For law enforcement it should be of interest to find a trusted location of a suspect. Relying on unaware FBS will destroy your investigation. Am I wrong?

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Posted : 18/04/2019 7:28 am
armresl
(@armresl)
Community Legend

I've been on here since 2004 I believe, and you are the only person that has ever asked questions like you are asking.
Trewte has an immense amount of knowledge, but you are just asking questions that this forum wasn't IMHO build for, so you are not going to receive answers and find that your posts mainly contain only your replies to your post.

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Posted : 18/04/2019 8:49 am
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Community Legend

So, why are on FF passive observers-only to posters in a ratio of 99.5%?

Maybe members of FF are by pure chance a statistically representative sample of the online world population where the ratio between lurkers and contributors is of the same order of magnitude.

jaclaz

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Posted : 18/04/2019 9:36 am
droopy
(@droopy)
Active Member

This is nothing new. Actually on LTE is the same, you could locate with less than 5 meters any phone just using 3-dimension enodeB. Moreover, if we could connect to carrier core, we have also 5 meters precision.

Location is always possible with better precision than GPS actually.

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Posted : 18/04/2019 1:38 pm
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

Our team got an expert from outside to better understand 5G first to get access to the cryptographic layer.

So what did your un-named 5G expert say to you, exactly, how you can "get access to the cryptographic layer."?

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Posted : 18/04/2019 8:00 pm
TinyBrain
(@tinybrain)
Active Member

In general the cryptographic layer - as the layer of authentication and authorization related to security - only can be fully understood if you first understand the digital process. Related to 5G this guy warned about failing in having the full picture in theory would also fail in testing after if we dont fully and hardened understand the 5G positioning options as a whole.

We have to master the crypto of 5G positioning - so I first have to understand the 5G positioning.

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Posted : 19/04/2019 4:28 am
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Community Legend

In general the cryptographic layer - as the layer of authentication and authorization related to security - only can be fully understood if you first understand the digital process. Related to 5G this guy warned about failing in having the full picture in theory would also fail in testing after if we dont fully and hardened understand the 5G positioning options as a whole.

We have to master the crypto of 5G positioning - so I first have to understand the 5G positioning.

I.e., in practice, he told you that you need to become a MBB expert (whatever that is).

I sense a sort of logical issue here

I am a cryptographer and cannot become an MBB expert to do my job.

jaclaz

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Posted : 19/04/2019 9:01 am
TinyBrain
(@tinybrain)
Active Member

Is somebody running 5G tests in general related to positioning?

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Posted : 20/04/2019 2:17 am
passcodeunlock
(@passcodeunlock)
Senior Member

Huawei is, contact their official channel.

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Posted : 20/04/2019 7:42 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

If you do follow up on the comments below

Huawei is, contact their official channel.

then you may want to ask Huawei what their current position is given Huawei's response to the call for input concerning Fixed Wireless Spectrum Strategy September 2016 at Question 6 a) How do you expect future mobile backhaul network architecture to evolve as part of the 5G ecosystem?

Huawei stated "…the foreseen increase of the front-haul capacity still presents technical and economic challenges such that we don’t foresee wireless front-haul to be deployed save for few limited applications."

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Posted : 20/04/2019 10:02 am
TinyBrain
(@tinybrain)
Active Member

Thank you trewmte for your proposal to ask Huawei.

But I got the new NRPPa to study first. Are you familiar with this protocol?

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Posted : 21/04/2019 7:27 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

Thank you trewmte for your proposal to ask Huawei.

But I got the new NRPPa (NR Positioning Protocol A (NRPPa))to study first. Are you familiar with this protocol?

I know of it and have a copy of it; I doubt there are too many out there entirely familiar in an operational 5G-NR context in a pure 5G network. Many of the protocols though are already rehearsed in a similar fashion for LTE Positioning Protocol A (LPPa).

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Posted : 21/04/2019 10:58 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

5G-NR False Base Stations (Part 1)

https://trewmte.blogspot.com/2019/04/5g-nr-false-base-stations-part-1.html

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Posted : 22/04/2019 9:31 am
TinyBrain
(@tinybrain)
Active Member

Toda raba for the blog.

5G FBSs are different. When they group-based circle arount the serving cell they offer to be closer neighbour cells and are waiting for the handover request which they answer correctly. They are False Neighbour Cells FNCs.

Its not about MITM of the serving cell.

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Posted : 23/04/2019 3:51 am
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