Chip off or JTAG
 
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Chip off or JTAG

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(@dcs1094)
Posts: 146
Estimable Member
 

Still, I would like to see a simple list that sums up to 200 K pounds.
(it is still - in my simplicity - an awful lot of money)

jaclaz

I do agree it is a lot…

I'm not aware of all LE tools, but i know a couple of programmers which cost 75k. They must have a large demand for chips offs for high profile cases and maybe they have been told they have to be able to cater for an event on quick turnarounds; whether that means them obtaining a large range of equipment (different rework stations, programmers, adapters, extractor fans, software) out there and so on etc… so its ready at their disposal without them having to later on try to get hold of it?

Either way it would be interesting seeing their facility and setup! (i wish) wink

 
Posted : 12/11/2013 2:26 pm
4Rensics
(@4rensics)
Posts: 255
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Topic starter
 

Sorry, no slides. F3 or the corresponding speakers do sometimes make them available, but no such luck. Unfortunately you will have to take my word for it.

I have been tasked with pricing these up, so I think I'm going to focus on the JTAG side for now and hunt down some costings for this in the UK.

 
Posted : 12/11/2013 2:58 pm
sideshow018
(@sideshow018)
Posts: 84
Trusted Member
 

When working on phones, one should follow Sam Brother's pyramid and work from the bottom up, the least destructive first. So to answer the first question, JTAG first and then Chipoff for a number of reasons

Chipoff is destructive to the device, no going back unless you are an uber guru in chip rework processes, not impossible, but very hard to do.

JTAG is cost effective, you can put together a very decent kit for 1500.00 to 2000.00 USD.

JTAG is a nice progression to the Chipoff process.

Chipoff costs are higher, much higher, but if you think that you have to have hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment to do this process effectively, you are mistaken. The three letter agencies will spend that kind of money as they have it, us little police agencies don't, so we work with what we can get.

Our Chipoff's are done with about 10,000.00 dollars of equipment and we are getting the same results as the three letter agencies.

The agencies that can afford it will use the NFI's programmer that runs at about 90,000.00 USD or the Dataio programmer that runs about 25,000.00 USD (+more for the adapters $$$$$). For our purposes, we use the UP828 programmer and adapters. They read the chips just as good as the big guns and they focus on the chips that we find on Mobile Phones. This kit runs about 2,500.00 and then when you buy a number of adapters, you can get up into the 6,000.00 to 8,000.00 depending on what kind of device you are coming across.

With mobile phones moving towards the eMMC memory chips, we are now using a kit called eMMC SD Burn in Socket to read the chip without a programmer. The chip rests in the socket and you place the board in a write blocked SD card reader and image just like computer. This runs about 1200.00 for 1st generation set and 2,200.00USD for the newer 2nd generation set.

In our training, where the UP828, C-Ming, Dataio and Xeltek programmers have failed to read an eMMC chip, these eMMC SD adapters have been successful, great product.

For both the JTAG and Chipoff processes, you will need a cell phone repair kit (a good one with all the tools you will needs runs about 1100.00) and workspace, keep that in mind when it comes to applying for money.

For both processes, make sure you take some training first. Why go through all the troubleshooting yourself, why not take a course where the training entity has done all the hard work for you and show you how to do it properly. There are training companies in the UK, NFI has a program for LEO and in Canada and the USA (coming overseas soon) there is Teel Tech Training.

Cheers!

 
Posted : 19/01/2014 12:36 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
Illustrious Member
 

For both the JTAG and Chipoff processes, you will need a cell phone repair kit (a good one with all the tools you will needs runs about 1100.00) and workspace, keep that in mind when it comes to applying for money.

Still being (extremely) cheap 😯 , can you post a link to an example of these "cell phone repair kits" (one that runs for around 1K bucks)?
(to understand what is in one of them ? )

jaclaz

 
Posted : 19/01/2014 5:16 pm
sideshow018
(@sideshow018)
Posts: 84
Trusted Member
 

http//www.ibreakityoufixit.com/shop/wp-forensics-kit

Kits can be bought through Teel Tech Canada or USA as well, make sure you specify your power specs, 110 or 220 before hand.

 
Posted : 20/01/2014 1:28 am
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
Illustrious Member
 

http//www.ibreakityoufixit.com/shop/wp-forensics-kit

Kits can be bought through Teel Tech Canada or USA as well, make sure you specify your power specs, 110 or 220 before hand.

I see, thanks ) .

I would have said "less than 700 US$" but didn't take into account some of the tools included into that kit

  • Wild PCS stereo microscope
  • USB pen digital microscope
  • Ultrasonic cleaning machine
  • Pre heater station CO853
  • DC power supply 80

which should cost around US$ 500-600.

Which however are more "repair" than "pure chip-off", IMHO.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 20/01/2014 9:16 pm
sideshow018
(@sideshow018)
Posts: 84
Trusted Member
 

The kit is for both JTAG and Chipoff. Chipoff, for obvious reasons, you will not be repairing phones, but for JTAG, you need a working phone to complete the process, thus the repair equipment. Students are taught repair in the Teel Tech JTAG class. No point trying to JTAG a phone if it does not work (-

 
Posted : 20/01/2014 11:11 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
Illustrious Member
 

The kit is for both JTAG and Chipoff. Chipoff, for obvious reasons, you will not be repairing phones, but for JTAG, you need a working phone to complete the process, thus the repair equipment. Students are taught repair in the Teel Tech JTAG class. No point trying to JTAG a phone if it does not work (-

Sure ) , but normally a seized phone is working and it is not like adding/soldering a few wires (if a clip/connector is not available) for JTAG is going to (or should normally) "break" the phone, I mean good to have those, in case of need, but possibly not "basic requirement", on a strict budget.

If you prefer, how often do you use the pre-heater or the (stereo) microscope?

Like, you know

  • "on every device"
  • "on one out of 33" 😯 devices
  • "never used but once after JTAG class"

wink

And besides the "same" Wild PCS course for "advanced" board repair is 3 days, if I get this right the TeelTech LEO courses somehow "compress" board repair into 1 or one and a half days.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 21/01/2014 12:52 am
sideshow018
(@sideshow018)
Posts: 84
Trusted Member
 

Hmmm, keep in mind, we do get broken phones from bad guys, they break them just before arrest, they throw them in water just before arrest, phone are subject to other cases like arsons where they are found damaged, etc. In same cases, the bad guy has an old broken phone in the residence and has moved on to a new phone, might have dated evidence on that. Normal wear and tear, USB port broken, screen broken, digitizer broken, etc. Not ever phone that Police seize is a fully functioning phone.

Having cell phone repair skills and tools is an asset for every mobile forensics lab.

Pre-heater - used on 90% of Chipoff phones
Microscope - used on 90% of Chipoff to examine pinouts and 90% of JTAG to examine your solder work.

The kit has been condensed to the most important and used items from all the tools that they/we sell.

The full cell phone repair course is 5 days, we condense the most important stuff for our purposes in 2 days for the JTAG class, you get less than a day for the Chipoff class.

If you want to learn the whole process and get certified, then you should take the 5 day Cell Phone Repair class.

 
Posted : 21/01/2014 1:57 am
Jani Niemenmaa
(@jniemenmaa)
Posts: 12
Active Member
 

The kit is for both JTAG and Chipoff. Chipoff, for obvious reasons, you will not be repairing phones, but for JTAG, you need a working phone to complete the process, thus the repair equipment. Students are taught repair in the Teel Tech JTAG class. No point trying to JTAG a phone if it does not work (-

JTAG should still work if for instance just the screen is broken. So even if the phone looks dead, it might be possible to JTAG.

 
Posted : 21/01/2014 1:29 pm
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