Sorry, friend, there is no bashing involved. There is, however, a request for some sort of verifiable internet link to whatever the Honolulu story is. You might have a valid point, and one which I'd be happy to agree with. But you haven't provided enough information for us to look into it for ourselves.
Anyway, its all about learning, isn't it. Keep an open mind. Government licensing is more often than not a negative bureaucratic monkey on the back of business.
Cheers!
Attorneys respect licensing a great deal, largely in part because we see the harm inflicted on the public by those without a license to practice law.
Eric Van Buskirk, JD, MA, CISSP
Attorneys respect qualification above all else. A computer expert, that is, one with appropriate education, training and business class certification is equally qualified to be an expert witness as an identical witness whose only difference is having less money due to license expenses.
Licensing does not equate to qualification. Education, training and experience equates to qualification. I'd much sooner trust an MCSE with 10 years of experience than someone who knows far less but has a government mandated license.
But I will go one step further. Perhaps licensing is the cat's meow and we should have another Liberal gubment regulation requiring it. Fine. But it should be an IT qualification, not a PI license. A PI license has absolutely nothing to do with how versed in computer science someone is.
PREVIOUS QUOTE "A PI license has absolutely nothing to do with how versed in computer science someone is."
Wow, have you really checked the status of the 21st Century Computer Forensics Private Investigator? We sure have! There's a bunch of folks who are well-trained with certifications and degrees in this field who have their Private Investigator's License because they know of its marketing and legal value. The 21st Century PI is deeply into computer technology.
In CA I know of six Computer Forensics Private Investigators who qualified for and obtained a CA PI license based solely on their computer forensics degrees and full-time on-the-job computer forensics training. As I did the research on this and surfed the net to other states, I found a bunch more but did not have a count.
In CA one must prove 6000 hours of investigative full-time work, or 4000 hours with a related college degree or degrees, and pass another test that is the 3rd most difficult in the CA Professional licensing system, Department of Consumer Affairs. This is all in addition to the criminal background check, fingerprinting, state level ficticious business statement, photos on file and photo ID, tax number, and a bunch of rules of conduct and client confidentiality rules of non-disclosure of client secrets. There's even more……
I promise I won't tell these guys what you said "A PI license has absolutely nothing to do with how versed in computer science someone is." ) )
As I said before….who is the client or attorney going to pick….the unlicensed or the licensed computer forensics investigator? There are no negatives for the client or attorney who hires the licensed computer forensics investigator.
Wow, have you really checked the status of the 21st Century Computer Forensics Private Investigator?
What's a Computer Forensics Private Investigator? I have heard of Computer Forensics Experts and I have heard of Private Investigators, but being one doesn't mean you are qualified to be the other.
In CA one must prove 6000 hours of investigative full-time work, or 4000 hours with a related college degree or degrees, and pass another test that is the 3rd most difficult in the CA Professional licensing system, Department of Consumer Affairs.
And this rigorous testing is for what, PI or Computer Forensics?
This is all in addition to the criminal background check, fingerprinting, state level ficticious business statement, photos on file and photo ID, tax number, and a bunch of rules of conduct and client confidentiality rules of non-disclosure of client secrets. There's even more……
I'm sure there is lots more, considering that CA has one of the most bureaucratic governments in the world.
I promise I won't tell these guys what you said "A PI license has absolutely nothing to do with how versed in computer science someone is." ) )
Go ahead and tell them. You can be a computer scientist, a PI or you might qualify to be both, but just because you are one doesn't mean you are the other.
As I said before….who is the client or attorney going to pick….the unlicensed or the licensed computer forensics investigator?
As I have said before, in the real world, the client or attorney will pick the most qualified and knowledgeable CF expert.
You are correct. A CF expert CAN have a license. But a license is more a mark of adhering to needless bureaucracy, not qualification. Lets keep government out of our affairs. They'll only screw it up.
It seems hard for some to separate the issue of "licensing computer forensics practitioners" from the completely different issue of "requiring computer forensic practitioners to obtain private investigator licensing." Consequently, you often see comments like
Wow, have you really checked the status of the 21st Century Computer Forensics Private Investigator?
No one has offered a reason why a computer forensic practitioner should be required to have thousands of hours of experience as a private investigator.
Instead, the issues become confused by arguments such as "computer forensic practitioners should be licensed" or "licensed v. non- licensed which is better", or by mentioning other non-PI specific items such as "learning how to run a business" or background checks, etc. Well, these are all good reasons which, incidentally, also happen to apply to almost any sort of license. They are not reasons why computer forensic practitioners should be required to have PI licenses.
Good post, Will.
But let's just give up. We'll assume that we can't argue in the face of overwhelming logic and we'll agree that all Computer Forensics practitioners must be licensed. And a law is passed nationwide to make it so.
I have decided to agree with hitechpi and his lawyer friend. However, I do have one small question that I'd like you to answer. Okay, it's a compound question but it's an easy compound question.
Assume that all CF experts have PI licenses. Every one of them. You need one badly because you have been accused of some heinous crime. In response to your ad, 25 licensed propeller-head computer geeks show up.
Which one do you hire and what criteria will you use to make your selection?
I love that one…..what a cool way to wrap up this thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>Assume that all CF experts have PI licenses. Every one of them. You need one badly because you have been accused of some heinous crime. In response to your ad, 25 licensed propeller-head computer geeks show up.>>>>>>>>>>>>
Which one do you hire and what criteria will you use to make your selection?
Well you would look at the licensee information, confim, and then the qualifications….like any other hiring decision for a licensed professional. And since this is a criminal case of a heinous nature…..the client would sure want to have no licensing challenges. But the most important trait will be the propeller on the cap….is it strictly wind-driven, recharable-battey driven, alkaline-battery driven, or "solar powered" with a mini CPU, indicator lights, and a hand controller with lithum battery backup and selectable rotation speeds and propeller blades.
Hire the latter……
But let's get back to the five basic facts about obtaining and retaining a PI license;
- requires NO educational degree in data forensics
- requires NO working experience in data forensics
- requires NO learning experience in data forensics
- requires NO training or certification in data forensics
- requires NO knowledge of file systems, operating systems, or applications
Yes, you can have experience in these in some states to apply for your PI license, but it is NOT a requirement. Nor is it a requirement then to have any knowledge, skills, or experience in actual data forensics work - to obtain and retain your PI license.
I truly hope that all non-PIs work together, as soon as possible, to head this very stupid blanketing off at the pass.
You can have a PI license and work in data forensics. But, you don't have to. Because having your PI license doesn't mean you have the skills necessary for data forensics, the knowledge or understanding required, or any working experience.
Don't put the square peg in the round hole. Get involved. Speak out. Get together and get a certification or a license that fits the environment, not one that can cover some of it. Next you'll say if you're analyzing data pertaining to finances and accounting you'll be required to have a CPA …. and then a J.D. for legal data analysis ….
regards,
farmerdude
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ANALOGY QUOTE FOR FARMERDUDE
But let's get back to the five basic facts about obtaining and retaining a Driver's License;
- requires NO educational degree in driving to get the license
- requires NO working experience in driving just pass one or two simple tests
- requires NO learning experience in drving, if you are over 18
- requires NO training or certification in driving, if you are over 18
- requires NO knowledge of engine systems, operating systems, or applications…you just have to pass the limited drivers test and written test
Yes, you can have experience in these in some states to apply for your Driver's License, but it is NOT a requirement. Nor is it a requirement then to have any knowledge, skills, or experience in actual commercial professional driving work - to obtain and retain your Driver's license.
I truly hope that all non-Drivers-licensed people work together, as soon as possible, to head this very stupid blanketing off at the overpass.
You can have a Drivers License and work as an unlicensed professional driver or off-road motorcyclist or motorized bicycle. But, you don't have to, even if you get caught. Because having your Driver's License doesn't mean you have the skills necessary for racing, the knowledge or understanding required for off-road driving, or any working experience.
Don't put the square peg in the round hole. Get involved. Speak out. Get together and get a certification or a license that fits the environment, not one that can cover some of it. And by all means make sure that license in not issued by the STATE. Next, you'll say if you're doing special driving like taxi, bus, or limonsine service pertaining to commercialism and truck freight you'll be required to have a CPA …. and then a J.D. for legal Driver's License analysis …. END OF ANALOGY QUOTE FOR FARMERDUDE
Some folks just don't get it…..licensing is the law, and without the licensing the public/consumer/client will get ripped off, with no accountability.
It is literally dishonest to say that computer foreniscs investigator examiners will be self-certifying, self-regulating, and self-disciplined, and thus no licensing and no regulation will be required to discover, secure, present, and testify about digital evidence for the civil and criminal court system.
Because there are "computer forensics examiner/investigators" who are high tech sharks waiting to profit from the ignorance of a client or attorney….regulation is the preferred way. It is here now. It has been here for years. I am not sure why NOW the argument is becoming so loud. You should have done this decades ago, when professional licensing law was introduced and expanded. How old were you decades ago…..?
You are dreaming when you say we will all "band" together and protect the integrity of this profession. Licensing and the regulation of professionals has been historical state and federal law for decades. What makes the "computer forensics examiner/investigator" so special? I think we have some ego-centric, freedom loving, no regulation Computer Forensics Patriots who will enthusiastically "dump that British taxed tea" into the harbor along with any and all professional licensing that forces a "criminal background check" and other consumer safety precautions.
The loudest complainers are those who can't qualify for the simple state licensing that is required. I hope the no-license fight is NOT being done to hide the discovery of criminal histories from the licensing process.
If one committed to this field without EVER thinking about the professional licensing requirements then you are not as smart as you say you are, and "ignorance of the law is no exception!"
regards,
SCFI