I am not going to defend the Big 4 on their pricing strategies but it maybe a little over simplistic to suggest that they are a bunch of accountants who are dabling in computer forensics.
I don't believe that I said that. What I did say was that these companies evolved into this line of work through the progression from accounting support to automation to IT consultancy to digital forensics. I'm not saying that this is bad.
If you look at digital forensic job postings for the Big 4 you see in the opening paragraphs relatively vague statements like "improving customer value" and "improve business processes". Rarely do these "mission statements" directly mention digital forensics. If they decided, tomorrow, that the market was too crowded they could easily close their practices while continuing to provide other advisory services to their clients.
Now compare that to a firm which specializes in digital forensics and most often you will see explicit statements that focus on ESI, eDiscovery, litigation support and forensics. These companies have made an expressed commitment to being in this particular line of work.
Part of their strength is their wage levels and they can and do hire some very competent, skilled and experianced staff.
I don't disagree. But I have two observations which are mine, alone. First, unlike many of the forensics firms with which I have worked, the Big 4 personnel deployed to the field are often the more junior, less experienced personnel. This is not surprising as more senior personnel are usually able to negotiate less travel and their hourly rates are usually much higher cutting into profits.
The second observation is a matter of necessity (like McDonald's using 43,000 head of cattle to make a single hamburger so that they taste the same in Munich as in Nashville), which is that these firms commonly use a more standardized practice. The plus side to this is a consistent customer experience and a decreased likelihood of missing the low hanging fruit but the flip side of this is that, again, in my experience, customers are becoming cost conscious and there is an increasing need to focus the investigation on the most likely sources of evidence. Sometimes a standardized approach is simply too expensive and inefficient for particular cases.
In any event the original posting was about the "Big 4 Forensics Companies" and, IMHO, the term is a bit misleading. The "Big 4" refers to accounting firms all of which have digital forensics practices. But they are not, IMHO, the big 4 with respect to digital forensics.
If you're looking for a bit of history of the big4's issues, you should read up on the history of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act in the US. When a Republican congress/president decide your industry needs regulating, you know you've really screwed up.
That doesn't necessarily equate to their CF work, but their CF functions are embedded under their consultancy arms, so if you're ever going to work there, you should be aware of these rules.
In my experience degrees of competence and professionalism can vary greatly from location to location within the same firm - some clients are lucky, some less so, simply depending on where they're based…
Sure ) , but the whole point is that - mostly in good faith - "management" rents them because of the name that should imply a top level service, which is not always the case, as it should be.
If we put it in terms of ISO9001 or anyway "quality assurance" terms this is exactly what should NEVER happen.
Just imagine, say, Mercedes Benz or BMW had different levels of quality of their cars depending on where you buy them. 😯
For the record this USED to be true several years ago, at least for a number of car manufacturers, at least Alfa Romeo's and BMW's for the US market had a level of quality far superior than those for the EU one.
jaclaz
I don't disagree lol
I work Big 4 and I'm one of the more "junior" people some of you are referring to… I would like to point out they have invested over 100k in my career development throughout the last 3 years. I don't know any other companies that hire out of college and vest to that amount in training, certifications, conventions, etc. ??
I work Big 4 and I'm one of the more "junior" people some of you are referring to… I would like to point out they have invested over 100k in my career development throughout the last 3 years. I don't know any other companies that hire out of college and vest to that amount in training, certifications, conventions, etc. ??
Noone accused anyone of NOT investing or not investing enough on training. wink
And of course you shouldn't take this personally, I am sure that the 100K invested on you were well spent ) , what came out is that sometimes the quality of the result is sub-optimal and that - as said - in terms of quality assurance it is "better" to have ALWAYS the same (even low) standard than to have better and poorer ones depending on "chance" or "luck" (the actual team sent to perform the whatever chore).
Since most of us are seniors (at least in my case from a purely anagraphical point of view roll ) it is only human that we tend to appreciate more experience (summed to knowledge) than "pure" knowledge.
Back to the car comparison, it is obvious that if your car breaks in the middle of nowhere you tend - if available - to use the services of the workshop of your car's brand local dealer as supposedly you will have EXACTLY the same quality of service that you would have from the guys that you know since years and where you bought your last three cars and always serviced them.
This doesn't always happen in real life.
Since the whole point of paying higher rates is to have a guarantee that the work is done as it should and EXACTLY like it is done in ALL workshops of the given brand, if this doesn't happen (and it is being reported as sometimes not happening) there is a quality assurance problem, or -at least - the perceiving of such a problem, nothing more, nothing less.
jaclaz
Sean, I totally agree with your last post and I my comments did not refer to your previous posts.
Having previously worked within a similar environment to the "Big 4" I would concur that creating sales is a big part of the job. At management level at least, you could be the best computer forensic guy in the World, but you still need to bring the work in, and that is confirmed when salary is partly based on sales commision
I figured since I formerly worked at a Big4 shop I should describe my experience and touch on some of the points discussed
I'll clarify…Big4 refers to the big 4 accounting firms and not specifically big 4 CF/EDD firms.
Professionals
For one, I can assure you that the individuals who get hired to perform digital forensics and eDiscovery within the Big Four are not accountants who are given a writeblocker and dongle. When I worked at my establishment, I was sitting next to former FBI agents, Secret Service, Army, Navy, Air Force, DEA, IRS, ex-Guidance Software employees and others who retired and jumped into the consulting game to continue their computer forensics career.
While you may run into some bad apples, I would assume you can find that at any establishment.
Big4 hires out of college, which is something not many other places do. I commend them for that. How do you expect college kids to get jobs in this field when every job description says 3-5 years of experience on it?
Type of Work
I think it is important to understand the type of work that is performed in the Big Four, or at least what the main focus is. While you may be doing CF work for the gov't or private detective agency, they do not typically handle the same type of cases. They don't care about cheating wives or CP cases, it is usually some corporate misconduct, patent litigation, litigation or regulatory investigation, fraud, etc. Big4 will usually team with other service areas to best help the client (ex work closely with forensic accountants to review data).
The work is usually data dump or electronic discovery, but the skilled professionals are there should a deeper analysis be needed.
Pricing & Resources
I'm not going to go into specifics with pricing, but yes, some people are just more comfortable with buying the brand. Its the same with anything else.
The Big4 are global and have resources that many small shops don't have. If your client had images in NY, DC, CA, China, and Australia…could you complete the job (without posting on a CCE Listserv)? They could!
I remember two cases, we had a CF case where the custodian spoke only Spanish and everything was in Spanish. Our firm had a Spanish CF professional from our Argentina office to conduct the exam. Same case with a Russian custodian. They have a large pool of professionals when it comes to languages.
Also, in terms of resources, when I worked there I had it all. 4 Machines to myself. FTK, EnCase, Cellebrite, DTsearch, Paraben, Power Controls, and everything else. If we needed something for the job, we would get it. Not many other shops have that deep of a toolkit and not many other people have the ability to gain experience with a majority of the leading tools when working in a smaller shop or a shop that only uses one tool.
Training
It was already touched on before, but I received a lot of training while working in the Big4. I think I got 3 or 4 certifications on their dime as well as attended annual conferences. I'm finding that not many other places offer such nice training budgets.
Issues
This may not be something you may face, but in the accounting world there these little things called conflicts. In many cases, the Big4 can not work on a client if they also perform audit services to them. Therefore, they lose the business to another Big4 company or other provider. Even if the client wants them to perform the work.
Job Postings
I just did a quick Google search and found a job posting at KPMG for their forensic technology services practice. It seems to list the things you would want to see.
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I figured since I formerly worked at a Big4 shop I should describe my experience and touch on some of the points discussed
Well put. I could not agree with you more idea
I think that's a very good summary of the Big 4 position. The only point I'd take slight issue with is "individuals who get hired to perform digital forensics and eDiscovery within the Big Four are not accountants who are given a writeblocker and dongle" because experience (on rare occasions) teaches me otherwise, but as you say, there are bad apples wherever you go.
More importantly, I do think it's the case - broadly speaking, of course - that the Big 4 rely heavily on their name and bill the client accordingly - they don't generally offer the expertise or value for money found in the best smaller consultancies. That said, and has been touched on before, some clients are more than willing to pay for the name…