Speaking as a student myself,
Yes, some people do use forums as an answer machine. But other times, we just run out of places to look, and search terms to try. Sometimes, due to inexperience, we don't even know what search terms to try. While I won't deny that some use forums as a short cut, it is quite unfair to lump us all in and, in effect, calling us lazy and unwilling to work at a profession we have picked to work in for the rest of our working career.
That said, can you say you are any different? Can you say that you have never turned to a forum when you ran out of ideas and a problem has become unsolvable to you?
The difference is that you have more resources (websites, experience) with researching, we do not. So while a question may stump us, it would not do so for you because either you know the answer anyways, or you are familiar with such topics anyways (and thus not in completely foreign waters like a new student may be), or are more practiced at researching forensic topics and have more places, good places, that you can turn to, unlike us who are still resorting to Google because we have not yet amassed a good network of peers or websites with solid answers.
I do not mean to be confrontational. I do not ask that you just blatantly give us the answer (in fact, I make it a point to say I don't want the answer), just a push in the right direction. I do not condone those who use forums as a shortcut, but that does not mean we all do. If you suspect someone is, call them on it. But if they honestly have reached the end of what their abilities and knowledge allow, guide them, mentor them, and help them reach the answer on their own. Speaking from those I go to class with, we all take this subject very seriously. But taking computer forensics seriously does not translate into answers, experience, or research ability.
I guess I hope that you guys can be more empathetic to students who actually are trying and actually are learning. You were in our shoes once as well.
Not necessarily wanting to weigh into the debate (I've got an assignment due!) I'm studying at the moment, and would consult with lecturers or staff at Uni about any questions I had before posting on a public forum. I imagine the lecturers would also prefer students approach them with questions rather than posting publicly, that way they can tailor their teaching appropriately in future.
Hi,
I am a UK student and I read this forum every day. I really appreciate the input from the more experienced members and feel I learn from all the comments.
However I wondered if there could be a beginners section where it would not matter if the questions posed were simple or from people who had not done much research?
This might help beginners post and discuss some issues themselves and the more experienced members could pitch in if they felt like it.
There are lots of good books and web sites on forensics but sometimes I think that there is an overload of information. Perhaps people are not sure how to sift through it for the information that is relevant to everyday practice.
I think that is why a lot of the questions on the forum are asking for advice on what subject to write about for dissertations etc. It is not just laziness but maybe a genuine request to find out from experienced people what the burning issues are?
all the best D
There are lots of good books and web sites on forensics but sometimes I think that there is an overload of information. Perhaps people are not sure how to sift through it for the information that is relevant to everyday practice.
lynoharvey, I liked your response because it is the thought-path I am on.
The question, as I saw it (and why I was probing earlier) was how helpful are they, those to whom the student has PAID tuition fees, in producing a method-paper that gives you (the student) a flowchart to follow on ways and means of researching? That observation is based upon, if students are asking questions that are naturally expected to have already been answered in the classroom then why is the question being asked here?
Instead of creating segregation (that seems rather an excluding course of action), perhaps Jamie could create a sticky-page and the community could get together and produce a research flowchart for students?
Who knows, maybe Forensic Focus could become the envy of the world providing student's with direction and route to studying and researching.
Reading, researching and analyzing are essential skills both for successful students and for anyone hoping to work in an analytical field such as forensics.
That about sums it up. But maybe we might want to also ask
a) What is the level of 'teaching' the students actually receive?
b) Why is the suggestion being made that some (not all students) do not understand the path to researching?
c) Isn't there another aspect as well to consider and that is what is the level of reading materials actually available from the University?
This is an interesting set of questions. Over the past 10 years or so I have gotten the impression that educational institutions have been "jumping on the band wagon" and setting up courses in CF to harvest students.
I really question the quality of the intruction and courses overall and can say that based on some of the newb questions we have seen here lately I am not encouraged. One of the things that a university is primarily supposed to instill in the students is how to think through and research a problem. I haven' t seen too much of that in some of the questions we have seen lately.
Further as to the quality or level of the of the instruction. Some questions have been posted here of late that had the assignment problem set out. I noticed that the assignments were almost verbatim one of the old honeynet challenges (HINT TO STUDENTS the Honeynet challenges and Scans are classics, if you don't have that site bookmarked you should do so). Are some instructors just regurgitating old course material? Anyone else notice that as well?
For my two cents…
Being both a student and someone who is in the field, it is quite irritating to get students asking for suggestions for topics on Masters assignments / papers and the like.
For me if students want guidance in some regard would it not be better to formulate some possible topics and abstracts, submit them with the caveat, that 'I want to make it relevant to the industry' and then ask for comment?
Anywho, I think asking for help on assignments on a public forum is asking for trouble (and trolling). Not that this site has that issue.
DM
Being both a student and someone who is in the field, it is quite irritating to get students asking for suggestions for topics on Masters assignments / papers and the like.
Especially at post-graduate, Masters level, where I thought the emphasis was on a weighty 'original' contribution. No one in a forum is going to give you a great, original idea.
People will always be inclined to help out if you share where you are currently at (ie. have done some work), im torn between these 3 ideas etc.
As a lecturer any assignment I give my students is based upon material set in class. As such they already have the references they need to answer the question and should not need to ask a bunch of strangers for help. The only exception to this is a research thesis, in which case they should be making a original contrubution to the field. Darren_q is right in that I would prefer my students to approach me directly with questions rather than posting to a online forum (I would also hope that I could provide them with the help they needed).
With regard to creating a student dedicated section I have doubts that this would work. Mainly because people able to help the students would probably not bother to monitor it. I remember when I was on the SANS intrusion detection mailing list years ago and it was really good value. However they decided to get their students to post assignments to the list seeking feedback from the community. The noise to signal ratio subsequently went through the roof and I unsubscribed shortly after. (this is not knocking SANS students, in most cases they are a far higher quality than undergrad students, I was just not interested in wading through all the assignment posts to find the good stuff).
It's funny.
I get chastised by mod and a few others for my view on this.
BUT
Think of it this way boys and girls, its obviously starting to eat at lots more members and here is the wonderful thing (sarcasm on)
All these people who come on here wanting us to do their homework for them or want to post here something that the instructor is willing to help them with, will soon be graduates and be in LE where they can have the ability to arrest and a direct pipeline to the PO to charge.
OR
They will be in the defense area, get a case in some local court where the judge has no idea about e-discovery or CF and be called an expert one time, therefore carry that moniker around with them claiming they are an expert, quite possibly ending up getting a client sentenced on a case where they had no clue where to look for data or how to mitigate the case.
OR
They will work on civil cases where they cold cost some poor person their entire company, house, life, because they are inadequately trained.
Think it can't happen to you? We live in a litigious society, you can be sued for anything at any time and just think that while you may be smart enough to know something about CF or ED, the PO or LE might not and they could have been the person just a few months ago who was asking questions about their homework on the forum.
Nice to see more people coming out saying that they are tired of this and that it goes beyond an annoyance in a forum, as many have said they are going to get degrees and use those degrees in CF, at some point it could cost us all something.
I really question the quality of the intruction and courses overall and can say that based on some of the newb questions we have seen here lately I am not encouraged. One of the things that a university is primarily supposed to instill in the students is how to think through and research a problem. I haven' t seen too much of that in some of the questions we have seen lately.
Further as to the quality or level of the of the instruction. Some questions have been posted here of late that had the assignment problem set out.
I agree. While there will always be some students who try to take short cuts, there are many more who are frustrated by the poor quality of forensic courses in the UK. Many of the key forensic lecturers at many Universities have never practiced in the field. It seems like many Unis are jumping on the band wagon of a popular subject.
The reason Shrivhenham / Cranfield has such a high reputation is because it is taught by lecturers with vast experience in the field, who place importance on the scientific method and the requirement to experiment and test a hypothesis.