Do my homework....anyone?

foresnicakb, I have seen the student queries from time to time but I always thought they were seeking help because the basis to the question required interpretation due to complexity of it, such as

———————-
A stream object contains a stream of data between the keywords stream and endstream. This data stream is often compressed and thus looks like a meaningless bunch of bytes to the untrained eye

5 0 obj<</Subtype/Type1C/Length 5416/Filter/FlateDecode>>stream
H‰|T}T#W#Ÿ!d&"FI#ʼnNFW#åC
…
endstream
endobj

In this example, the compression used is the Flate method of the zlib library. You can see this because of the /Filter /FlateDecode entry. In the PDF parlance, a filter is a compression method. A stream of data can be compressed by more than one filter.
——————-
or

——————————-
mobile phone SIM access - the software of your handset/SIM returns the log file requiring manual examination and interpretation of the returned status bytes and PDU

A0A40000026F070FA0C000000F000000096F07040015F015010200009000A0B00000090829435172180041059000

This example presents the request from the mobile to a reading device to identify the IMSI (international mobile subscriber identity). The student is required to understand coding of the commands for SIM Cards from the standards

(Select File) A0A4000002 (IMSI) 6F07 ->
(PDU result- 15 bytes to be returned) 0F ->
(Get Response) A0C000000F -> 000000096F07040015F015010200009000 (Get Binary) A0B0000009 -> 0829435172180041059000

Without the IMSI being presented upon request to the mobile phone, the mobile phone wouldn't be able to foward the IMSI to the network in order for the subscriber's IMSI to be used in the authentication procedure as the mobile phone would not be able to determine at first instance which mobile network the SIM belonged to (so to speak).
———————————-

I would expect information like this to have been imparted by the lecturer ready for assignments.

But what you are saying is that the assistance being sought from students is much less complex and basic than the above and the answer sought are easily discoverable by using google.

I am only raising this not to disagree or agree with a particular point, but I understood from this thread that the technical fundamentals weren't being clarified in the classroom and the students were having to come to people like you to get help.

So here's my thoughts, I know you're all waiting with eagerness (who yawned?)

Academia and the real world are two very different and separate entities. Here in the UK Universities have targets to achieve and that comes at a cost. Academic research is not the same as the research we conduct day-to-day in this field. However it is still drilled into students that they should become independent learners.

When I was at University (not long ago at all) I went and bought books about the subject that would then read on my own time. This allowed me to progress and to learn of my own accord. Many of the questions posed in this forum can be answered by reading around the subject.

I dare say that the majority of people here don't care if students ask questions, even apparently simple questions, because we realise the need to learn. The whole point of this thread, as I recall, was about students copying and pasting their assigned questions as if asking a legitimate question of fellow professionals.

I don't care about the standard of teaching at the varying universities around the world, you can't tell me that the student doesn't see a moral or ethical problem with this. The information is out there. If lecturers say not to use Google in a rapidly expanding field such as this then they have missed the point completely. By all means find the answers on Google but it is then down to the student to verify those answers themselves.

I've seen the graduates being turned out by universities over the last couple of years. The same university can produce both good and bad graduates. Bad programmes can produce good graduates, just as good programmes can produce bad graduates. It is down to the individual.

Not all students are evil! Not even half, or a quarter of them are. We don't hear much from the good ones because they get on and do their work. Think of all the undergrads who are, at this time, studying for entry into this field. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of them and only a handful are actually posting these types of questions.

Whichever way you look at it copying and pasting an assignment question, expecting busy professional to do your homework for you, is very poor form.

if a student is asking for help searching on a topic having anything to do with investigating and can't find it on their own, then maybe they aren't quite ready for the field.

Back in the mists of time, I used to play the piano, and had a very good grasp of musical notation at the time, which I have to some degree maintained over the years. A couple of years ago, I decided to start learning electric guitar. Got both books and video DVDs on the subject and at some stage I wanted to find how to play a full octave (scales). No matter how hard I searched, over numerous days and nights, and how many people I asked I was at a complete loss as to how you play scales on a guitar. After a discussion with a guitarist & pianist friend, which turned into a shouting match out of pure frustration, I got one of his books and read out all the notes out loud. And it dawned on both of us that I was missing one important little thing, which is that I was asking the wrong questions because, somewhere down the line in a lot of countries they changed the naming and style of the musical notation because the old one was "too Victorian" and the students had problems understanding it, apparently.

Was I lazy? Did I not know how to search for information on a search engine? Am I supposed to feel a poor & unfit guitarist (or researcher/scientist) because of it? Or was it simply that I was missing a key bit of information I didn't even know existed and my contact & discussion with a professional musician enabled me to eventually figure out what I was missing?

(And, just for a laugh I'll tell you this I still use the old-school method, because I learned things that way, but at least I can now also read new-style music notation with some degree of confidence.)

I personally would love it, of course I know that any page I go to on the internet be it Greek, Farsi, Japanese, Hebrew, Arabic, or Quechua I can get it translated and move on.

To some degree, yes. But anyone who's done any Natural Language Processing/Programming can tell you that it is never entirely correctly and never entirely taking into account things such as colloquialisms in the written language etc.

After a set of 4 years where you go through network security, programming, file systems, software, hardware, etc. I find it incredibly hard to believe that someone can't come up with a topic to do something on.

Its a hard pill to swallow, without a doubt. BUT, consider my previous posting and what I said about the universities and the students and you'll see that what you presume they learn is not what they really learn. For example How many DF courses and in how many countries do you know where students get to write an exploit (and, please, no hysterics about it being against the law etc. NOTE this is a joke)?

You can't honestly tell me that throughout the entire uni that they didn't use Google. "dissertation topic ideas" you don't even have to put in the ideas part, Google does it for you. What about brainstorming, we did that at uni, start with a topic and branch out, there is NO possible way if you filled up a poster-board with a brain storm for dissertation ideas that you couldn't end up with something. That was a main requirement in speech class.

Oh, undoubtedly, they have used Google, but how many of them do you think have used the Advanced Search tab, for instance? How many of them even know Google Scholar, do you think?

As for brainstorming… Its fine when _all_ the people in the group have a certain level of previously-acquired knowledge on the subject area _and_ the interest to expand it. But, when all of the students (or people in a group, generally speaking) have more or less exactly the same level of knowledge it is actually pointless, though I do have to admit the ensuing wall-to-wall chaos of posters is always a good laugh. That is one of the things people forget about these really "cool" new didactic models.

But as a side note, in my personal experience I have learned much more listening (or reading) what experts and more generally older people had to say BEFORE asking them silly questions.

And its a very very very good way of learning!

Which may be allright if the question comes (without the part in brackets) from your mom or dad, but is a bit less so if it comes from a teen or early twenties lad that manages to find and download ANY possible piece of music or movie from ANY possible server on the internet, while chatting on MSN, SMSing his/her friends, and looking the right road to the place where the party is on his phone connected to Google Earth.

With all due respect, I don't buy that a student, and particularly a student in computer science doesn't know what Google is and that it can be used for something else besides finding funny videos on youtube.

Kids - and expecially those that study in a technical field - are far less inexperienced that you may think, for the most part they are bright and intelligent Very Happy and know perfectly well how to use technology and the internet to find whatever they are interested in and they suddenly become "inept" and "inexperienced" where some tough work (like actually studying) is needed.

With a far more primitive technological experience and lesser means weren't we all like that when 19 or 20? Rolling Eyes

And, of course, you are right, for a certain value of "right". Where I personally feel you are mistaken is in your assumption that, just because they are "at home" with technology in this day and age means they know how to use all of it like a pro or even a mediocre user. And don't confuse the ability to sometimes multi-task with the extended ability to do things right while multi-tasking, LOL! -)

Searching for a song is easy if you know the name of the song and/or the composer. Searching for and evaluating academic papers to identify possibly new and/or possibly unexplored research areas, or even current ones, is quite a different thing.

And searching for topics fit to become projects in a BSc and MSc is equally a pain in the neck in the best of cases.

Why
You're not required to produce novel work, in a Bachelor's degree, but you are required to produce a piece of work within a VERY limited time-frame. Same goes for a Master's degree with the addition of some degree of novelty. And then you have to pass it through an Ethics Committee (so that the university can feel safe from litigation) and you have to stop the school's IT admins from declaring you a criminal just because they don't understand your project however small and easy to understand words you try to use. So, by the time you actually get your project fully approved and under-way, the 6 months you realistically had _magically_ turn into 3, 2, or even 1. Want me to go on? I promise you, it _will_ get worse the more you pick at it!

One point that gets missed is that Universities strongly suggest, or perhaps brainwash students into believing that Wikipedia and Google are NOT acceptable research methods. I was frequently confronted with staff at university who point blank stated that if they suspected that we had used Wikipedia at all for an assignment, then they would fail us outright.

My personal view is that they should in fact instruct students to use Google and Wikipedia as starting points, provided said students check the referencing associated and follow it up with further research, however whilst you quite rightly say that kids are not as inexperienced as we think, they are VERY naive.

The first bit, I have to admit, is to some degree right for a university to do. What you yourself may not be doing but I've seen done countless of times already is people directly quoting stuff they find on Wikipedia and Google as opposed to peer-reviewed publications which is what they should be doing.

Wikipedia itself is kind of a special case… Supposedly "everyone" is allowed to contribute, which makes it "not peer-reviewed enough". And to some degree, they are right, but not always and not in everything. My argument to that is
a. What makes you (speaking generally) think that the books you _are_ allowed to put in as references _are_ peer reviewed?
b. When the whole statistics section of Wikipedia (which I know and have printed out for off-line referencing too, lol) is written by PhD and above level academics and is even used extensively by the Royal Statistical Society in the UK, for one thing, how can you not allow me to use it as a starting point?

Here in the UK Universities have targets to achieve and that comes at a cost. Academic research is not the same as the research we conduct day-to-day in this field. However it is still drilled into students that they should become independent learners.

I agree. Wholeheartedly, I might add. With almost everything. Yes, they are drilled, but 3 years of drilling cannot and will not substitute 12+ years of them depending on their teachers at school to provide them with all the answers.

The whole point of this thread, as I recall, was about students copying and pasting their assigned questions as if asking a legitimate question of fellow professionals.

They are not asking a legitimate question of fellow professionals. They are students, not professionals.

I don't care about the standard of teaching at the varying universities around the world, you can't tell me that the student doesn't see a moral or ethical problem with this.

As we all have witnessed from the reactions of students to the topic, clearly some of them do, which is something they (and we ourselves) should feel proud for & of.

The information is out there. If lecturers say not to use Google in a rapidly expanding field such as this then they have missed the point completely. By all means find the answers on Google but it is then down to the student to verify those answers themselves.

You misunderstood benfindlay's point because he didn't explain it properly. The lecturers don't say "don't use Google", they say "don't reference google searches and pages coming from non-peer-reviewed material" (except from very very special cases). That is right, to some degree, as it is meant to force the students to dig through academic papers which have at least stood up to some scrutiny from fellow practitioners in the field, which is part of the academic and scientific way of doing things.

Whichever way you look at it copying and pasting an assignment question, expecting busy professional to do your homework for you, is very poor form.

Very true, but be thankful you don't (as yet, to my knowledge) have rent-a-coder type sites where students hire a professional to do their homework, so plagiarism & collusion are still relatively easy to spot in DF courses, LOL!

There is a wealth of information at students' fingertips via the internet, but quite often there is an old dinosaur stood at a lectern spouting diatribe about the evils of using it! I personally found myself thinking that such lecturers were absolute &lt;insert your preferred colourful metaphor here&gt; who were simply showing their ignorance and clearly did not themselves understand how to use such technology properly, and hence they were against it (or they couldn't be bothered to explain their proper use). However all too many students will take such lecturers' words as Gospel and simply not use it (perhaps that should read take the risk).

Logical flaw detected. 😯

Your reasoning if correct if you assume that the best way to make a young guy/gal do something is NOT forbidding him/her to do it!

Really, in my day we were told n times to never ride a bicycle in two people as it was dangerous, and what we did as soon as we were around the corner? ?

And we were also told that cheating with homework was morally reproachable and what we did ? ?

As I see it, students trying to have their homework made is both perfectly normal and legit.

It's up to us "old guys" to try and teach them something while helping them doing their homework instead of plainly doing them or give the impression (false or true) that we are actually a closed circle of grumpy bastards.

There was a topic not that much time ago
http//www.forensicfocus.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6390
where I posted my idea on the matter
http//www.forensicfocus.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6390&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=17

People coming here to get help and suggestion/hints should be helped, but while helping them one should also at least try to "educate" them in being more confident in their skills, and in learning how to do their part of the homework…

jaclaz

A stream object contains a stream of data between the keywords stream and endstream. This data stream is often compressed and thus looks like a meaningless bunch of bytes to the untrained eye

trewmte don't get me wrong, we mainly agree, but I think the following example will illustrate part of the frustration in this topic.

Your example of the PDF can found in the official Adobe PDF format specification. This is actually one of the open format specification. Let me illustrate how easy it is to find the information

1. I'll try a Google query on "pdf format specification"
First hit http//www.adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html

2. I access the linked site
I admit the Adobe site is a tad obscure to read, but the last link provides me with the specification.

3. I download the PDF
Now for the hard part, a little patience, it seems to be a specification of some size.
The browser automatically opens the document for me

4. I search for FlateDecode and find the following on the first hit

(PDF 1.2) Decompresses data encoded using the zlib/deflate
compression method, reproducing the original text or binary
data.

Now I'm asking you was this information hard to find ?

Interesting article and follow-up comments on a somewhat related note at http//www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11676192

With that in mind, I just wanted to come back to a point raised earlier about the differences between students in the US and the UK (at least I think it was this thread, although it may have been the other forum magnum opus which is running concurrently) - I'm curious to know what our non-UK members make of the state of the UK education system based on what they may have read, either here or elsewhere?

Jamie

A stream object contains a stream of data between the keywords stream and endstream. This data stream is often compressed and thus looks like a meaningless bunch of bytes to the untrained eye

trewmte don't get me wrong, we mainly agree, but I think the following example will illustrate part of the frustration in this topic.

Your example of the PDF can found in the official Adobe PDF format specification. This is actually one of the open format specification. Let me illustrate how easy it is to find the information

1. I'll try a Google query on "pdf format specification"
First hit http//www.adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html

2. I access the linked site
I admit the Adobe site is a tad obscure to read, but the last link provides me with the specification.

3. I download the PDF
Now for the hard part, a little patience, it seems to be a specification of some size.
The browser automatically opens the document for me

4. I search for FlateDecode and find the following on the first hit

(PDF 1.2) Decompresses data encoded using the zlib/deflate
compression method, reproducing the original text or binary
data.

Now I'm asking you was this information hard to find ?

OK, I understand what you are saying; yes the PDF scenario could be found and you have shown one way how to web search and build the relevant parts of information needed from searching various webpages. The SIM log file scenario I put is equally searchable too. It is as hard (or easy) to research dependent upon the knowledge taught in class, along with acquired research skills.

If the students not only know the level of complexity from what I set out but know considerably higher and more complexity than that (which is what I think you are suggesting), then those who have raised negative issues in this thread would equally have the same understanding as you and they are naturally asking why are those students making those posts?

Some suggestions have implied lack of effort. I took the view I am not clairvoyant so offered an alternative route as to whether the students had been taught sufficiently, which maybe a reason for the posts which are now the subject of this thread being generated.

If the students not only know the level of complexity from what I set out but know considerably higher and more complexity than that (which is what I think you are suggesting), then those who have raised negative issues in this thread would equally have the same understanding as you and they are naturally asking why are those students making those posts?

I think that could be part of the issue. Although I would not like to limit my point solely to students making such posts. Let me elaborate

IMHO (in general) it shows a lack of understanding on what kind of material/case you are working (or going to work). The care you should take doing solid research/investigation. Note that the result of CF investigations can have direct effect on the future of the people, related to the investigation.

Some suggestions have implied lack of effort. I took the view I am not clairvoyant so offered an alternative route as to whether the students had been taught sufficiently, which maybe a reason for the posts which are now the subject of this thread being generated.

As I said, we mainly agree, you're example mainly was a good one to continue on.

Logical flaw detected. 😯

Your reasoning if correct if you assume that the best way to make a young guy/gal do something is NOT forbidding him/her to do it!

Jaclaz, it's not my logic or reasoning, I am merely commenting on observations of what I have witnessed to actually HAPPEN.

Also you are assuming that such students have rebellious tendencies and will disregard what they have been told. In reality many of them will simply accept what they are told as Gospel (naivety deja vu).

You are absolutely right to believe that students should question what they are told, but many don't. But then ask yourself who is to blame for this? Is it the students for their naivety/work ethic, or is it the education system for knowing they are like this, and not catering for their needs?

As someone who has taught in schools, my view is that the educators have the responsibility to meet the needs of their students, and to help develop the questioning mindset. The problem in doing this is the constant target setting and exam preparation within education systems that leads to students being spoon fed far too much, and not enough time devoted to promoting independent learning.

The reality is that many universities hire staff for reasons other than their teaching ability, e.g. reputation, money they can bring in via research etc. The truth is that their teaching ability is often way down the list of priorities.

There is a culture within forensic degree courses of reinforcing 'expert' credentials, especially during mock court exams and coursework. How do you expect such students to react when (from their perspective) one of the apparent leading 'experts' in the field tells them not to do something? This person may in fact be nobody noteworthy at all, but from the perspective of somebody with little experience they can be seen as akin to celebrity. Whilst I am not defending the students for their naivety, it is surely something that needs addressing.

Really, in my day we were told n times to never ride a bicycle in two people as it was dangerous, and what we did as soon as we were around the corner? ?

And we were also told that cheating with homework was morally reproachable and what we did ? ?

As I see it, students trying to have their homework made is both perfectly normal and legit.jaclaz

For the record, I find the idea of anyone within this field cheating or not following rules to be outrageous, and it is something I have NEVER done, nor would I ever have considered it. This profession needs morals and ethics, and anyone who is lacking in these should seriously ask themselves whether they should be doing the job they are!

So here's my thoughts, I know you're all waiting with eagerness (who yawned?)

Academia and the real world are two very different and separate entities. Here in the UK Universities have targets to achieve and that comes at a cost. Academic research is not the same as the research we conduct day-to-day in this field. However it is still drilled into students that they should become independent learners.

When I was at University (not long ago at all) I went and bought books about the subject that would then read on my own time. This allowed me to progress and to learn of my own accord. Many of the questions posed in this forum can be answered by reading around the subject.

&lt;snip&gt;

If lecturers say not to use Google in a rapidly expanding field such as this then they have missed the point completely. By all means find the answers on Google but it is then down to the student to verify those answers themselves.

I've seen the graduates being turned out by universities over the last couple of years. The same university can produce both good and bad graduates. Bad programmes can produce good graduates, just as good programmes can produce bad graduates. It is down to the individual.

Not all students are evil! Not even half, or a quarter of them are. We don't hear much from the good ones because they get on and do their work. Think of all the undergrads who are, at this time, studying for entry into this field. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of them and only a handful are actually posting these types of questions.

Whichever way you look at it copying and pasting an assignment question, expecting busy professional to do your homework for you, is very poor form.

Lee, you are spot on for how things should be, but the sad reality is that they are not this way. The necessary drilling in of independent learning is often nothing more than a token effort, and there is altogether too much spoon feeding prior to university, so that students arrive without the necessary skills already in place.

Rather than develop these skills, the staff tend to demand them of students, and get difficult/dismissive with students when they can't step up as required. Education should be about meeting the needs of the students, not making the students meet the lecturer's style or ideas of teaching.

Anyone who disagrees with this should go talk to a newly qualified teacher or a PGCE lecturer about the importance of educational differentiation and topics such as learning styles and the student's hierarchy of needs (or just use Google, I will allow you! ;)). Agencies like OFSTED demand it of staff in mainstream education, with threat of sanctions, job loss etc for those that fail to do so. Why should university staff get away with not doing it?

Whilst it may be true that Google, Wikipedia etc are not reliable sources of information for academic assignments, surely the staff should tell the whole story, and explain that they are ok for starting points, but more is needed. Tell the whole truth regarding this, not just the truth, to use a familiar phrase!

From your comments Lee, I can see that you fall into one of three categories (that I can think of right now, there may be more I have missed)
1. The dedicated, hard working, student who wants to succeed for their own reasons (personal satisfaction, money, or other reasons)
2. The student who picked the right university (through research or luck!), and as a result had contact with excellent teachers.
3. Perhaps a bit of both category 1 and 2?

Not all students do fit what many people on this forum demand of them, and either universities should refuse them entry, or take them on, with the intention of developing any missing skills whilst there. I don't think it's unreasonable for students to get this kind of experience, considering how much they currently (or will) have to pay!