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How can LEOs and Criminals talk?  

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RolfGutmann
(@rolfgutmann)
Community Legend

It sounds stupid or impossible. But how can LEOs and Criminals talk to each other? What is possible by talking to an enemy? From LEO side revealing nothing will dead end the conversation. But what to feed-in to build Partial Temporary Trust PTT on a mutual basis?

My brain is running fine. Dont call me stupid, I am not.

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Posted : 04/05/2018 3:31 pm
armresl
(@armresl)
Community Legend

What I would find interesting is what exactly do you do.

You study every topic, and I mean every topic. No LE would need all that information about cars, drones, cell phones, 5G, LTE, getting signals up mountains, and the 100's of other topics. What is your specific area of expertise?

With regards to partial temporary trust (none of those warrant capitalization) you have made it abundantly clear that you wont talk with people who are not LE as they can be the enemy. To be perfectly frank, I am not sure what you would bring to the table as most of your threads talk about subjects that you are the sole interest in.

It sounds stupid or impossible. But how can LEOs and Criminals talk to each other? What is possible by talking to an enemy? From LEO side revealing nothing will dead end the conversation. But what to feed-in to build Partial Temporary Trust PTT on a mutual basis?

My brain is running fine. Dont call me stupid, I am not.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 5:22 am
MDCR
 MDCR
(@mdcr)
Active Member

What is your specific area of expertise?

From what i have read is that he could be working for a "fun agency", there you do not only work on forensics, you also work with counter-forensics, tries to stay one step ahead of the competition by trying to figure out what a bad guy with lots of resources would do and then finding a solution that would be at least partly resilient to that.

Normally you would keep quiet and not stick out too much during employment and ask around in a smaller and less overt circles, and only after you have left the place you can put some details on Linkedin or FF.

*cough*

As for the topic There are these things called forums - and yes, even criminals use specific ones where they discuss details that the LEO/IC communities wants to know. It's called OSINT, some of us could write a series of books on this, going into technical and procedural details of how not to raise suspicion.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 8:41 am
RolfGutmann
(@rolfgutmann)
Community Legend

Digital Forensics is facing sooner or later Going Dark. Only flaws or exploits/0ds will enable to get out evidence. So it may will come a situation that LEOs have to buy 'tools' from criminals to get access. Buying today exploits in the Darknet is proof of this, its just a platform of anonymity between but reality is LEOs buying from Criminals.

Its not absurd to be prepared and think abou this today. If your lifestyle is to wait and start thinking if things occur is fine for you. But for sure you are not prepared and failed to use the time to prepare.

If you prefer your weekend chilloff, fine, all the best.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 11:49 am
passcodeunlock
(@passcodeunlock)
Senior Member

I don't get what is the real question ?! Prison sentence reduction agreements exist for a long time by now. It's a "something for something" communication between LE and criminals.

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Posted : 05/05/2018 8:25 pm
RolfGutmann
(@rolfgutmann)
Community Legend

The question is How can LEOs and Criminals 'collaborate' on mutual interest? If LEOs need an exploit for a mobile OS in case of a live-threatening - worth life safeing - situation how can this happen? Both sides today would say Never.

But I am sure in case of an extreme unexptected emergency this situation will occur.

An example A U.S. investigator based in San Bernardino needs an exploit to unlock FAST!!! a locked mobile by exploit-based bypassing the security he has to buy it from a criminal which is a high-end hacker. Anonymity may helps, but may also fails. Imagine a transparent situation of LEO and Criminals e-handshake. The price should be low digit as LEO has to provide an unknown value in reverse. Otherwise the too high price will fail the deal and life has gone.

Its not about collaboration to reduce prison-time. Its about a fast deal within hours.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/05/2018 9:41 pm
MDCR
 MDCR
(@mdcr)
Active Member

An example A U.S. investigator based in San Bernardino needs an exploit to unlock FAST!!! a locked mobile by exploit-based bypassing the security he has to buy it from a criminal which is a high-end hacker. Anonymity may helps, but may also fails. Imagine a transparent situation of LEO and Criminals e-handshake. The price should be low digit as LEO has to provide an unknown value in reverse. Otherwise the too high price will fail the deal and life has gone.

Its not about collaboration to reduce prison-time. Its about a fast deal within hours.

The exploit used in Bernardino was rumoured to be bought from a commercial vendor specializing in security software and not some criminal organisation. The harvest from that purchased exploit itself were rather slim, i think that case was a test and it could set a precedent for investments in exploits (cost vs reward) by government agencies… well, at least law enforcement without an unlimited black budget.

Regardless on where you are on the planet, it is fully possible for law enforcement and the IC community to work together, i know that this has happened when it comes to cracking crypto.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/05/2018 10:08 pm
bshavers
(@bshavers)
Active Member

LEO and criminals communicate all the time, but it is always going to be a one-way flow of information for dozens of legitimate reasons.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/05/2018 11:10 pm
RolfGutmann
(@rolfgutmann)
Community Legend

I do not mean snitches delivering INT towards LEOs who are paying cash. See my description last post, this is the unsolved problem looming.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/05/2018 10:21 am
passcodeunlock
(@passcodeunlock)
Senior Member

Mostly any worthy LEO infiltrates or has connections to the "underworld", but I think that your question regarding temporary trust can't be answered.

When there is a hard matter, you simply test the solution, no matter if the solution comes from a criminal or not. If the solution works, it doesn't matter if you got officially temporary trust or not )

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Posted : 07/05/2018 11:46 am
RolfGutmann
(@rolfgutmann)
Community Legend

Fully aggree. But there is a potential of mutual interest. Imagine a criminal delivers once 'the solution' you should maintain a lifeline for the next time you may need his help.

Usually in extreme emergency situations 'new partners' have to fastboot eTrust.

If the criminal etrusts the LEO the chance to deliver is higher. NoTrust delays every step. Topshots not hang-in on money only.

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Posted : 07/05/2018 5:38 pm
bshavers
(@bshavers)
Active Member

I do not mean snitches delivering INT towards LEOs who are paying cash. See my description last post, this is the unsolved problem looming.

The example of paying a criminal for a tool or information defines the criminal as an informant ('snitch', cooperating witness, cooperating informant, etc..), and the purchased tool/information still cannot be trusted.

The issue is bi-lateral trust, which by the very nature of an adversarial relationship between law enforcement and criminals, cannot exist without the likely risk of compromising one or the other's goals, especially when the criminal is anonymous or unidentified.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/05/2018 6:04 pm
RolfGutmann
(@rolfgutmann)
Community Legend

Totally.

The question is 'who needs who'? As explained LEOs only need Criminals. This is a dangerous vuln. Imbalance is a problem for one side. LEOs.

To give up is no way. To think and search for a 'new/other' way is the path to success.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/05/2018 6:27 pm
bshavers
(@bshavers)
Active Member

LEO "Hey Sarge. Can I have 2 bitcoin to buy this exploit from an anonymous criminal on the Dark Web so that I can use it to do forensics on this difficult case?"

Sergeant "Are you on crack?"

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/05/2018 6:32 pm
RolfGutmann
(@rolfgutmann)
Community Legend

You make me smile. My boss told me the same in our local language "bisch bsoffe" (are you drunk)?

Do you believe that law enforcement is Going Dark?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/05/2018 7:26 pm
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