So what you're saying is that by providing the answer to the student, they don't actually learn anything, and will ultimately fail the class, if not the course of study?
Sounds to me like we're doing the work force and the DFIR community a great service by answering the homework questions. If spoon-feeding someone leads to them failing the course, or not being able to get a decent job in the community, isn't that a good thing?
Just sayin'…heck, you don't even have to give them the right answer.
As someone who has posted questions to gather aid for homework, here is my two cents.
Most are just looking for the answer. And if we just give it to them, we do the student, their studies, and the CF community a disservice a disservice by giving it to them. My greatest learning experiences did not come from getting the answer handed to me (copy and paste results in very little, if any, retained information), but those instances when I struggled and worked until I finally got it.
I think above all, the skill of research and testing is the most important to a CF examiner. You can not teach everything a CF examiner may need over the course of their career. At some point they are going to have to tough it out and do original research to make sense of the artifact that they may be seeing. Some questions do not have answers until someone does the research.
I think posting questions relating to homework (not copy and paste), is a good thing. For one, it allows us to point them in the right direction (much like the man <command> comment above). We can help them get to the answer without actually giving it to them. This struggle into new territory (even if it is something more seasoned experts know and use everyday) is akin to a real world situation of original research (albeit more guided).
On top of that, posting questions introduces them to the CF community, and the forums as a resources when they get into the field professionally.
But, while I think we are obligated to help CF students, we should treat them as we would treat our own students. If you were this posters teacher, would you just give them the answer? Or would you give a hint. Would you open the text book (or man page) where they can just get the answer, or would you be more indirect?
Sounds to me like we're doing the work force and the DFIR community a great service by answering the homework questions. If spoon-feeding someone leads to them failing the course, or not being able to get a decent job in the community, isn't that a good thing?
True - perhaps I'm being too nice, or not being predatory enough (after all, he could be competition for that job I want!), but I do believe in helping other people out. I don't think they should be spoonfed at all, those just wanting it handed to them on a plate don't deserve the answers. But a little nudge in the right direction? We all continue to learn in our professions, and you have to ask questions as part of that learning process.
Just sayin'…heck, you don't even have to give them the right answer.
Now that's just mean! )
I was serious when I suggested a new forum for the homework, not because I have a problem helping people learn - I quite enjoy it, but because the last few homework questions have been asked by multiple people in different forums here. If there was just one place for them to post then perhaps they wouldn't multi-post. Although that would entail them reading previous posts or perhaps even using the search functions, which may be beyond them.
+1 Joe, I think it's a good idea too
Would also help those guys with the knowledge to answer if they know they are talking to a student then the answers can be pitched accordingly )
I would add, if I may, is that sometimes the actual "level" of the question, or, in this specific case the "way" it was asked is (to me) dismaying. (
I see nothing bad in in either asking for help or giving it, and the decision about giving hep should be not connected to the reason why it was asked (like actual issue, homework, whatever).
BUT there is something that often leaves me wondering.
I can see between the lines of some questions lazyness or lack of a form of "respect" to the other people (in the sense that if you ask a question properly, a lot of people may want to try and help you, but if you post a badly worded or in any case a question that needs guessing from the one that would like to help, you are asking a possibly interesting and "valid" question in a "poor" way and it is more likely that you will get back either senseless attempts to reply to "another" question or no answers at all).
The typical question that can be replied with the usual link to
http//
is actually an otiose question. 😯
In a "normal", "generic" forum this is perfectly "normal".
In a "specialized" forum this is somewhat "preoccupying".
When this kind of "homework" question are asked, they are most probably asked by a young guy/gal that is actually studying "computer science" or "digital forensics" at a college or university and is not able to
- ask a question in a proper way
- shows any sign of his/her previous research on the matter (no matter whether partialy successful or failed)
- explain in his/her words (set apart the copy/paste of the actual homework question) what is the actual issue he is failing to understand (or to understand fully).
Remember that these people may become tomorrow digital investigators, or to be more precise, get the qualifications to be one, and they cannot even properly interact with their fellows and/or completely miss the kind of inquisitive curiosity and problem solving attitude that should characterize any member of the profession.
I would vote for making a "dedicated" forum to this kind of "homework" question IF it would be possible to "carve in stone" on it's header page this
http//homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/problem-report-standard-litany.html
and possibly this (aimed at a different kind of question, anyway rather common)
http//homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/put-down-the-chocolate-covered-banana.html
Just for the record, there have been in the past similar discussion threads, or however connected with this, a few of them
http//www.forensicfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=6560/
http//www.forensicfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=6390/
http//www.forensicfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=6113/
I am all for trying to help other people whenever possible but it would be much easier if they at least tried asking senceful questions in a senceful way roll .
I will try to re-write the OP how it should have been written IMHO (fictional)
Hallo,
I am a xx year student of yyyyyyyyyyy, I have had this test submitted to meQuestion 2 Pasco
The other way of inspecting information inside the index.dat is to use application called PASCO which parses information inside the file and sends to delimited text files that can be imported elsewhere.
Copy the file Documents and Settings/amy/Local Settings/Temporary Internet Files/Content.IE5/index.dat to /home/caine/evidence/index.dat. You need to use ifind and icat. In ifind, use the "-n" flag with the full file pathname in quotes.
I have studied the PASCO help file and got to the man pages of both ifind and icat, but for the sake of me I cannot understand how exactly ifind and icat should be used and in which sequence.
What is the actual ouput of iFind?
I simply cannot understand what I will get if I run the command, i.e. what is thisDescription
ifind finds the meta-data structure that has data_unit allocated a data unit or has a given file name. In some cases any of the structures can be unallocated and this will still find the results.How exactly can I then use icat?
With which parameters/arguments?
A question like the above fictional example shows IMHO that
- previous attempts have been made BEFORE asking the question
- some background about the question, the actual reason why it is asked and the result of the provious attempts is given
- some time has been taken into formulating the exact question(s) the OP has doubts about
which are the basic requisites to increase the probabilities to get a proper answer.
jaclaz
jaclaz is correct, we've been over this ground before.
We already have forum guidelines in place which are repeated in the introductory welcome message when people sign up but I'm afraid there's only so much one can do to ensure mature forum participation. I do appreciate it's tempting to imagine that creating a forum for student questions is the (partial) answer to some of the problems which cause understandable frustration for experienced members but I'm not convinced that there's really any structural measure which we can put in place to address the underlying issue (which is, I suspect, simply one of maturity).
Personally I'm still of the opinion that most students are fully capable of using forums such as this responsibly but there will always be a minority who see it as an alternative to hard work (I speak generally here, not specifically with the OP in mind). It's right that we should make clear what is, and is not, acceptable forum usage when that sort of situation arises but I'm not sure there's much more we can do beyond that, especially given the limited time resources which we all face.
Jamie
Caning. Caning works every time. mrgreen
<soapbox>
I think it is cultural change that I see, and it is not reserved to Western cultures.
Back in the early 80's posting in usenet groups where the discussions were above my (or others') mental equity was humble and respectful. Yes, there were trolling even back then, but much fewer posts without prior work (initiative to solve by self first), and lack of realization that the responding expert is doing a favor.
FidoNet was similar, but the cracks could be seen in the civility.
I have ran a half dozen (commercial, private, and open) communities in the past and the entitlement has grown every year. Users demanding, because they deserve, entitled, owed, etc, has risen considerably.
Our children are told from birth, they are owed, and deserve things; that their failures are not because they put little to no effort into it, but because others refused to give them what they deserve.
We got rid of morals, ethics, integrity, character, and made ourselves into gods.
</soapbox>
And, now I crawl back into my pre-assigned bomb shelter.
I do like the list by Bernstein.
What exactly did you do?
What exactly did the computer do?
What exactly did you expect the computer to do?