@wotsits Just wanted to answer your questions first and not make it more complex to confuse you completely.
trewmte is the coryphaeus on this topic and mobile broadband. He is covering decades of know-how unbeatable.
Finally A highly accurate timeline is the backbone for all location issues.
1) If person takes their UK sim overseas, there will be no data pertaining to any received SMSs
- Correct?
See the technical answer based on 3GPP/ETSI/GSMA does not reflect for evidence the reality implemented on the two involved providers (as trewmte already said).
2) If so, will there be data pertaining to the roaming message sent from the provider that will show the country where the sim was activated that could thus give some clues for making enquiries with overseas providers? Or is the roaming message not logged in the same way that can be retrieved and provided by the provider to law enforcement?
You do good in being persistent to try to understand the issue. Listen to trewmte, ask the UK provider first, he will cover the foreign provider too internally.
Providers are under high pressure to implement before standardized (3GPP/ETSI/GSMA), so they try to be conform to standards for international collaboration, BUT
BUT, I manytimes saw that they do different.
1) If person takes their UK sim overseas, there will be no data pertaining to any received SMSs - Correct?
Unless you have actually examined the UK SIM, then any response to this question is that it cannot be answered one way or other and invites speculation as to possibilities. Moreover, you have not confirmed whether the UK SIM was used with a UK handset or a rented handsets in the US. There is no detail as to how the MS will handle (configured) received text messages. I provided a weblink earlier identifying the Classes of SMS messages as defined by GSM/3GPP - http//
Of course, there is also the possibility that data on the UK SIM may have been deleted by the user. But checking for deleted data is still possible; the first byte in the SMS header field will be deleted so it may not be possible to assign received from network read/not read etc. See bit coding in GSM TS 1111 / 3GPP TS 51.011 EF7F106F3C EFSMS (Short messages).
For the avoidance of doubt, I have only referred to GSM/3GPP standard identification, not ETSI nor 3GPP2 standard identification (but can be provided if needs be)
2) If so, will there be data pertaining to the roaming message sent from the provider that will show the country where the sim was activated that could thus give some clues for making enquiries with overseas providers? Or is the roaming message not logged in the same way that can be retrieved and provided by the provider to law enforcement?
Unless the roaming message was a Class 0 flash message (displayed on the screen of the mobile phone) then roaming message data might be stored (Class 2) on the UK SIM. Therefore, it is possible to speculate that there may be data pertaining to received SMSs whilst roaming on the UK SIM. Additionally, in your original post you mentioned AT&T (hence why I referred to IRA) then there could be a welcome message from AT&T - the US network provider.
As you are referring to a roaming UK SIM in the US the assumption here is that if or when you examine the UK SIM card you may consider it relevant for additional investigation of the contents of EF7F206F30 EFPLMNsel (PLMN selector) and EF7F206F7B EFFPLMN (Forbidden PLMNs) to see any updated networks and any forbidden networks detected whilst roaming.
Should the UK SIM have been seized in the US and not have been used again then there are a number of other EFs that may need to be investigated on the UK SIM.
Roaming calls occurring on e.g. AT&T network, any data retained should be on the AT&T side UNLESS it is an express agreement of the IRA that all chargeable messages are forwarded to Vodafone UK. That maybe required where a customer disputes chargeable messages and Vodafone might then have the confirmation of SMS tracking ID number, acknowledge of message received by the subscriber and the content itself. Coupled with the TAP file and potential content, which I also mentioned in my earlier post, could produce quiet a compelling case one way or other.
1) If person takes their UK sim overseas, there will be no data pertaining to any received SMSs - Correct?
Unless you have actually examined the UK SIM, then any response to this question is that it cannot be answered one way or other and invites speculation as to possibilities. Moreover, you have not confirmed whether the UK SIM was used with a UK handset or rented handsets in the US. There is no detail as to how the MS will handle (configured) received text messages. I provided a weblink earlier identifying the Classes of SMS messages as defined by GSM/3GPP - http//
Of course, there is also the possibility that data on the UK SIM may have been deleted by the user. But checking for deleted data is still possible; the first byte in the SMS header field will be deleted so it may not be possible to assign received from network read/not read etc. See bit coding in GSM TS 1111 / 3GPP TS 51.011 EF7F106F3C EFSMS (Short messages).
For the avoidance of doubt, I have only referred to GSM/3GPP standard identification, not ETSI nor 3GPP2 standard identification (but can be provided if needs be)
2) If so, will there be data pertaining to the roaming message sent from the provider that will show the country where the sim was activated that could thus give some clues for making enquiries with overseas providers? Or is the roaming message not logged in the same way that can be retrieved and provided by the provider to law enforcement?
Unless the roaming message was a Class 0 flash message (displayed only on the screen of the mobile phone) then roaming message data might be stored (Class 2) using the UK SIM. Therefore, it is possible to speculate that there may be data pertaining to received SMSs whilst roaming on the UK SIM. Additionally, in your original post you mentioned AT&T (hence why I referred to IRA) then there could be a welcome message from AT&T - the US network provider.
As you are referring to a roaming UK SIM in the US the assumption here is that if or when you examine the UK SIM card you may consider it relevant for additional investigation of the contents of EF7F206F30 EFPLMNsel (PLMN selector) and EF7F206F7B EFFPLMN (Forbidden PLMNs) to see any updated networks and any forbidden networks detected whilst roaming.
Should the UK SIM have been seized in the US and not have been used again then there are a number of other EFs that may need to be investigated on the UK SIM.
Roaming calls occurring on e.g. AT&T network, any data retained should be on the AT&T side UNLESS it is an express agreement of the IRA that all chargeable messages are forwarded to Vodafone UK. That maybe required where a customer disputes chargeable messages and Vodafone might then have the confirmation of SMS tracking ID number, acknowledgement of message received by the subscriber and the content itself. Coupled with the TAP file and potential content, which I also mentioned in my earlier post, could produce quite a compelling case one way or other.
The roaming network operators used by a UK SIM card should be known to a UK operator e.g. Vodafone. Law enforcement should not be experiencing difficulties in making an access request for subscriber details and data to the relevant UK or roaming operators e.g. AT&T in the US ( see an example of UK legislation - http//
Its worth searching theoretically evidence elements in Case F although the technical implementation has to be proofen with involved carriers.
Are there 'reliable' evidence elements in general worthy to separate before asking the 'adopted' (by the carrier) evidence elements? Is there a way of 'logical concluding' the missing elements to get a 'scenario-weighted' evidence? Missing evidence is an uncertainty and in court interpretation problem (judge asks but in advance does not understand the answer).
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