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The rates of pay  

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trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

Some observations to bear in mind.

The rates of pay - http//trewmte.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/the-rates-of-pay.html

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Posted : 02/10/2012 12:21 pm
jhup
 jhup
(@jhup)
Community Legend

Are you saying that you are not allowed to charge more than that rate?
Are all the expert are exactly identical in their competence?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/10/2012 7:41 am
LarryDaniel
(@larrydaniel)
Active Member

In the US

1. The rate of pay you can charge is based on the entity that is hiring you if it is an appointed case and it varies by state, county and federal jurisdiction.

2. As far as what you can charge for retained cases, that is up to you to set or negotiate with your clients.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/10/2012 7:55 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

There have been guidelines that identify a rate of pay for work going back to The Legal Aid in Criminal Proceedings (Costs) Regulations 1988, 1989, 2000 and subsequent amendments thereafter. The guidance back then quoted an hourly rate £80.00. The UKSI 2011 identifies an uplift of £10.00 to £90.00.

The guidance rates you see being quoted are those that, unless an instructing solicitor can show why more should be paid per hour, are the hourly fees (the rate of pay) a person may receive. A Court can order (although this might be a last resort) that the amount being hourly charged by the expert should exceed that of the rate quoted in the guidance.

A fundmental and important fact to remember is that the payments are drawn from taxes that have been allocated as a cash sum for use in Legally Aided cases and therefore requires care.

Whilst I do not fully agree that the fees are fair, they highlight a beneficial insight that can be drawn from them. The guidance fees show that the UK national minimum wage was excessively under valued as there is no hourly fees quoted that are close to the national minimum wage. Why is that important? Because an implicit fact that can be drawn from the fees is the reward to recognise the importance of striving for knowledge and skillsets and to work to high standards. It is not unreasonable to suggest this can help people understand their value and to see if it is being properly recognised or the employment situation is merely draining personal resources in a pay-as-you-throw mentality.

Finally, the guidance fees in the UKSI have no impact where the client is paying privately.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/10/2012 11:49 am
jhup
 jhup
(@jhup)
Community Legend

Can you elaborate for us, not in the UK, what those rates represent in your opinion? Is it too high, too low, appropriate?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/10/2012 1:12 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

To discuss your question needs identification and consideration, at minimum, of three different economic operating bands

NMW
Measured against those on the national minimum wage (NMW) the guidance fees may represent an ideal many might desire to earn on a hourly basis.

Starting Out/New to Profession
For those seeking employment or not experienced enough with valuing their services the guidelines highlights a gauge or measurement that a person may wish to use to see if they are below or above the threshold set out in the guidance. For instance, where did this notion come from that cell site/mobile telephone examiners should fit into a catagory of £22K-£30K as seen in the adverts here at FF and elsewhere? From the amount of salary point of view a person could look at the guidance hourly fees compared to say £30,000 per annum divided by number of working weeks and number of hours per day and may think I am only being paid £10/£12 p/h and yet the thieving basket (joke) is billing my services at £90 p/h.

Seasoned Professional
Professionally, though, the guidance fees do not represent appropriate value or recompense for the years of striving, knowledge and experience and are too low against the burdens expected to be carried by a professional.

The quality measurement of cost should not be based on an average hourly rate but the rate of pay advanced on a case by case basis commensurate with the complexity of the work involved.

However, at the higher end £300/£400 per hour and at the lower end £130.00/£190 per hour are not uncommon in today's fiscal climate.

Perhaps you could, from a US point of view, disclose what you say is typical US hourly rates?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/10/2012 3:19 am
LarryDaniel
(@larrydaniel)
Active Member

I have seen rates from 40/hr to 500/hr here in the US.

The average seems to be 200-250 per hour.

Our firm's rate is 250.00 an hour and it is published on our web site in our FAQ section.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/10/2012 10:44 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

As an update regarding experts/witnesses, competency and evidence the UK Criminal Procedure Rules and the Civil Procedures Rules have been updated and came into force on the 1st October 2012.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/10/2012 10:56 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

As an update regarding experts/witnesses, competency and evidence the UK Criminal Procedure Rules and the Civil Procedures Rules have been updated and came into force on the 1st October 2012.

Apologies; forgot to add links

http//www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal
http//www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/rulesmenu

http//www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil

Also have a look at this Bar Council discussion

http//www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/code-guidance/guidance-on-witness-preparation/

What is the relevance of the above links to the main topic of discussion about rates of pay? The identification of responsibilities and skillsets needed for dealing with forensics and evidence in addition to the person actually have the level of knowledge, skills and experience relevant to the actual work involved for evidence gathering and teh same for the science involved in the field of endeavour in which the person works (technology, medicine, accounting etc etc).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/10/2012 11:19 am
jhup
 jhup
(@jhup)
Community Legend

As Larry D wrote the rates I have seen range from about $100 to about $500 for private-hire work.

I do not have court ordered work rates, but I presume it is very much driven by the region.

I have seen primarily three ways of charging - by data size, by the hour, and some hybrid of the two.

When by size, all charge by size on disk - this is an important distinction, specially if dealing with e-mail in .MSG or .eml format on a large-cluster drive.

When by hour, it is almost always full hour, instead of the 6- or 15-minute lawyer time.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/10/2012 11:26 pm
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

range from about $100 to about $500 for private-hire work.

So that is approximately between £62 p/h to £308 p/h; so fairly similar to the UK then.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/10/2012 3:03 am
armresl
(@armresl)
Community Legend

Sup Jman,

$500 is just ridiculous, I've said that before, say it again.

While you don't have the 1/4 phone calls, I do bill .10 per email that I have to read and respond to with anything over Yes, no, OK on the way, etc. and the .10 is my travel, consultation, and phone rate, which is well under half of my forensic rate.

I've met two people I'd pay $400 an hour to (which I think should be the top) and they are by far the best I've ever seen without a doubt. I've also met people who actually charge $400 and I was grossly embarrassed for the person they were charging, because they were 5 or 6 years out of college, got MAYBE 10 cases a year and actually stumped on something so basic, that you'd throw your monitor if you heard their thought process. So what do they do, go immediately to the forums and ask. Then call the client with that answer without testing it or anything.

This is 2 tiered, so please make sure that you know I mean both. I also believe that if you are a life long investigator, or a lifelong computer geek AND you get hired on with alphabet soup to get your CART cert, then you are one of the baddest dudes on the planet. Last week I looked over the newest requirements to get and maintain the CART cert for a person, and it's grueling. From A+ to mock trial absolutely incredible.

As Larry D wrote the rates I have seen range from about $100 to about $500 for private-hire work.

I do not have court ordered work rates, but I presume it is very much driven by the region.

I have seen primarily three ways of charging - by data size, by the hour, and some hybrid of the two.

When by size, all charge by size on disk - this is an important distinction, specially if dealing with e-mail in .MSG or .eml format on a large-cluster drive.

When by hour, it is almost always full hour, instead of the 6- or 15-minute lawyer time.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/10/2012 3:15 pm
Jonathan
(@jonathan)
Senior Member

To clarify; the rates that trewmte posted are the maximum rates that the UK government pay experts instructed in Legal Aid cases (cases where the defendant is deemed unable to afford their legal representation).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/10/2012 3:38 pm
jhup
 jhup
(@jhup)
Community Legend

Most of the $500+ (yes, +) rates are from big-name firms.

Their clients are not paying for better service. They are paying for a better name.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/10/2012 3:06 am
trewmte
(@trewmte)
Community Legend

Great replies to this thread. Thanks for joining in.

….actually stumped on something so basic…..

Without speaking out about that situation, how will it get remedied?

So what do they do, go immediately to the forums and ask. Then call the client with that answer without testing it or anything.

And that happens whether the person has an educational degree or not. Equally, whether s/he works in the public or private sector.

How many Politicians have we all found that make statements, which later the facts stated in them turn out to be statements which simply could not be true, that had been found to be cribbed from the interent, twitter, facebook or other sources; perhaps reference to the rumblings of "dodgy dossier" and "war" is but one example.

—-

The monetary factor is a focal point and there is an argument, but at the other end of the scale, where a person/company charges a low fee and still produces erroneous opinion/evidence. Is there any objection to that happening? By way of illustration, say the production of a "set fee" report that simply agrees with the other side - is that honest or the right thing to do?

The internet can be a powerful tool to be used for educational good. So if I were reading this thread for the first time and wanted to understand my value in the marketplace would it be essential in formulating how I see my worth to identify the distinctions about charging that fall between

- self-employed -v- employed?
- experience -v- inexperience
- private charges -v- public purse charges
- objective charging -v- subjective charging (is this one possible)?

Any additional titles or subsets for a particular title you can think of?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/10/2012 2:12 pm
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