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Bulgaria Government Owns $3 Billion In Bitcoin  

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C.R.S.
(@c-r-s)
Active Member

Bulgarian law enforcement jointly worked with the Southeast European Law Enforcement Center (SELC), a regional organization comprised of 12 member states, to bust a sophisticated organized-crime network, arresting twenty-three Bulgarian nationals and seizing a total of 213,519 bitcoins.

http//www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-08/bulgaria-government-shocked-discover-it-owns-3-billion-bitcoin

This article actually rises some interesting questions How do LEOs deal with Bitcoins buried in their evidence rooms? Are they able to transfer the sums into the national budget? Will Bitcoins, one by one, be returned to the victims? Converted into money and then (currently a fraction of it, representing the former exchange rate) returned?
At the moment, most legal frameworks cover money (in a legal sense) and moveable assets, not necessarily 'data' or data representing securities.

Their popularity among criminals could also have a deflationary influence on the price of cryptocurrencies in a little-noticed manner Major legislations that fail in processing CC would suck them in over time through LE actions, and thus remove them from the economic cycle.

Quote
Posted : 10/12/2017 12:52 pm
MickArneke
(@mickarneke)
Member

Bulgarian law enforcement jointly worked with the Southeast European Law Enforcement Center (SELC), a regional organization comprised of 12 member states, to bust a sophisticated organized-crime network, arresting twenty-three Bulgarian nationals and seizing a total of 213,519 bitcoins.

http//www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-08/bulgaria-government-shocked-discover-it-owns-3-billion-bitcoin

This article actually rises some interesting questions How do LEOs deal with Bitcoins buried in their evidence rooms? Are they able to transfer the sums into the national budget? Will Bitcoins, one by one, be returned to the victims? Converted into money and then (currently a fraction of it, representing the former exchange rate) returned?
At the moment, most legal frameworks cover money (in a legal sense) and moveable assets, not necessarily 'data' or data representing securities.

Their popularity among criminals could also have a deflationary influence on the price of cryptocurrencies in a little-noticed manner Major legislation that fail in processing CC would suck them in over time through LE actions, and thus remove them from the economic cycle.

Let me give you one answer- we work for some time with these peoples there, because of common task.
They ARE extremely intelligent, fresh and with very, very good forensic education, very competent. Actually, their country is growing very, very fast.

* They confiscate the currency like product of criminal activity.
* After the first speedy verdict, they froze any possibility of returning the confiscated values waiting the next stage court decision.
* When all judiciary proceedings are finish, their confiscation is a closed fact, and no return is possible.
* After that, all currency is deposited in the national bank and the bank make her own decision about this- if he want to sell- the currency is auctioned. Actually, the bitcoins became part of their strategical fiscal reserve.

I have the opportunity to go there 4 time until now, because of common task cooperation- enjoyed very much to work with them, really. Probably you don't now, but Bulgaria had foreign debt in 1997 about 13 billion $. Now they have enormous budget surplus, and budget deficit of about 3%, waiting to join the euro. Smart country- very nice, smart people, very cultivated, very good educated, broadly intelligent.

The bitcoins are the financial future of the world- it is a fact nowadays. Adapt yourself quickly.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/12/2017 10:31 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Community Legend

So if I get this correctly, the Bitcoins are treated like any other "asset" (not currency[1]) seized in the course of a criminal investigation in most countries.

As a side note, it is interesting what will happen in Japan with the Bitcoins seized after the Mt.Gox crack, basically the actual owners of the Bitcoins filed for reimboursement (hoping to get *something* back, as usually when these bankrupts happen only partial or very partial money is returned) at the valuation the Bitcoin had at the time of the seizure.

It seems like Japan Law doesn't allow for reimboursement in excess of what was asked, so, IF Bitcoin will remain at such a high price as it is (or will increase its value) there will be a large excess of value.

As a matter of fact, it is a very peculiar case where a firm goes bankrupt but has a residual (huge) value after all debits have been repaid.

jaclaz

[1] You don't make an auction for currency, it has nominal, "face" value by definition.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/12/2017 11:44 am
C.R.S.
(@c-r-s)
Active Member

Well, people contacted me and the news I quoted above turned out to be 'fake news' (beforehand, due to my lack of research) These Bitcoins were not recovered, but apparently the contractor assisting in this operation traced transactions of this volume.

There is a fresh case from Hesse, Germany (closing the Hydra marketplace) http//www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/bitcoin-hessen-hofft-auf-gewinn-durch-verkauf-von-kryptowaehrung-a-1183699.html

The prosecutor, Mr. Benjamin Krause, says "We treat Bitcoins like perishable goods and sell them in an emergency sale."

While there are many practicable approaches, all this seems still unregulated. I guess, we'll see some legal dispute around this.
The Spiegel gives the impression that the authorities are speculating a little bit "The value of these assets now amounts to EUR 1.9 million. Now they are to be sold before the price might collapse again." Not that perishable, isn't it?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/12/2017 12:57 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Community Legend

Well, people contacted me and the news I quoted above turned out to be 'fake news' (beforehand, due to my lack of research) These Bitcoins were not recovered, but apparently the contractor assisting in this operation traced transactions of this volume.

I thought that MickArneke had just confirmed the whole stuff, besides telling us how clever the Bulgarians are and how Bitcoins are "the future" ? .

Anyway, viewing Bitcoins as "perishable goods" is an interesting new approach ) , particularly if you seize them in 2014 😯 and try to sell them - coincidentally of course - three years later, the very days the hit their maximum value.

It will be interesting to know if Mr. Krause managed to sell them at their peak of around 20,000 US$ on December 17 or at around 12,000 US$ on Dec 22 (not exactly the same result for the state of Hessen finances)….

Now, I am familiar with two "perishable goods"
1) wine (that might increase value with age)
2) milk (that surely loses all or most of it values with time)

Bitcoin seems like a third kind …

jaclaz

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/12/2017 1:52 pm
MickArneke
(@mickarneke)
Member

Well, people contacted me and the news I quoted above turned out to be 'fake news' (beforehand, due to my lack of research) These Bitcoins were not recovered, but apparently the contractor assisting in this operation traced transactions of this volume.

I thought that MickArneke had just confirmed the whole stuff, besides telling us how clever the Bulgarians are and how Bitcoins are "the future" ? .

Anyway, viewing Bitcoins as "perishable goods" is an interesting new approach ) , particularly if you seize them in 2014 😯 and try to sell them - coincidentally of course - three years later, the very days the hit their maximum value.

It will be interesting to know if Mr. Krause managed to sell them at their peak of around 20,000 US$ on December 17 or at around 12,000 US$ on Dec 22 (not exactly the same result for the state of Hessen finances)….

Now, I am familiar with two "perishable goods"
1) wine (that might increase value with age)
2) milk (that surely loses all or most of it values with time)

Bitcoin seems like a third kind …

jaclaz

I think, you understand wrong. It is because, probably, you reading too fast, and you are obsessed to contradict someone simply because of your personal dislike towards someone.

I never spoke about the present case- I just wrote how they proceed with confiscated currency- for them the bitcoins are a "currency" [by their law]. Thus, i do not "confirm" any information.

Some months ago, and completely by chance, we had had a talk with them [ the Bulgarians] about some aspect of the monero forensics, and I learn, how they proceed with confiscated currency values. The bitcoin auction is a world practice- look here

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/feds-moving-quickly-to-cash-in-on-seized-bitcoin-now-worth-8-4-million/

About the bitcoins - I speak with many friends in the field, and it is really a fact that this kind of currency is the future, because it means freedom, it is relatively secure {at last at this time, there is no known facts of false production, only stealing], and it is completely de-regularized. And there is no exchange rate or bank commissions [except some small fees]! We shall see in the near future many new bitcoins instruments- i.e. about lending or deposits. The argument- all new is bad, because may be of use to some criminals is groundless argument. Like the electricity cars and the green electricity is the future, the same is about the criptocurrencies.

Because the bitcoins are enormous treat to the today financial and political establishment, they will try to decimate the value, or to impose severe restriction on use or possession, or compromise by any means. We all remember the Roosevelt Executive Order 6102… isn't we?

"It seems like Japan Law doesn't allow for reimboursement in excess of what was asked, so, IF Bitcoin will remain at such a high price as it is (or will increase its value) there will be a large excess of value."

It is not applicable to the seized assets. You are wrong. The seized assets are auctioned, or confiscated for state use, or sell on the market directly. This is no "reimbursing" mechanism here at all. Pls tell us the specified Japanese penal code, or law, on which your info is based… )

p.s.
@jaclaz
I understand your irony about the cleverness of some peoples, or nation, but if you continue on the same note with the same means, you have no chance to be persuasive- your racial or human prejudices, simply because you, unfounded, think of yourself to be more "spiritually or intellectually elevated" than the others, is a simple nonsense. Personally speaking, i must confess, that you must be very careful when you try to patronize other race or peoples.

Those, whom I like, and those whom i dislike, is a personal matter, and you have no "opinions" of this. Of any kind.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/12/2017 8:23 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Community Legend

@MickArnecke
I don't understand the base underlying hostility towards me (but it's fine, no problem).

I got the impression you were confirming the specific piece of news, and said so, if this is not the case, it's fine as well, I simply misunderstood what you were saying, sorry.

However, Bitcoin - in most of the rest of the world - is usually seized and treated like any other "asset"as it is considered NOT a "currency", the extraordinary thing in your report on Bulgary is that there it is considered "currency" AND it is auctioned.

You cannot make an auction of currency, currency has a a face value.

Noone will accept to get 0.90 US$ in exchange of a 1 US$ bill and as well noone will pay 1.10 US$ for a US$ 1 bill.

The Japan case I was referring to is the reknown crash of Mt.Gox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox

there is no "seizure" of bitcoins by the Government at all, it is normal bankrupcy Law, which is more or less the same all around the world, all assets are liquidated and creditors are repaid (very often only very partially) proportionally.

The "q***r" thing is that the Bitcoins increased their value so much that once repayed all creditors fully there would be a (large) surplus for the company under liquidation
http//fortune.com/2017/12/13/bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-creditors/

Japan’s bankruptcy laws say a company’s liabilities must be registered at their market value when bankruptcy proceedings were initiated. When that happened in April 2014, one bitcoin was worth less than $500. Now it’s worth $17,200, meaning MtGox would get to keep the difference of around $3.3 billion if the bankruptcy proceedings follow through.

jaclaz

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/12/2017 10:59 am
MickArneke
(@mickarneke)
Member

@jaclaz

There is a currency board in BG, with fixed currencies exchange rates. From about, i think, 17 years… . They treat the cryptocurrencies like currencies. They are foreign currency, because they are not a national currency, and because they have market exchange rate- the apartment building does not have an exchange rate.
Cash is also an asset.

From the chat i had had with peoples there, the term "auction" is about who will offer the less fees and best price above some margin ( the days of the trade margin)- i suspect that they trade these bitcoins by someone help, i.e.-trusted "ethical hackers", or something of the sort, but I really don't know the exact procedure, and I do not ask further ( was interested more about the monero forensics details).

About the Japanese case- the company in Japan filed for bankruptcy protection there - no assets, or bitcoins, was seized because of prosecution.
The Capreles charges in Japan was NOT in connection with the whole amount of the missing bitcoins- he transferred some amount to wallet he "controlled". And this occur about 6 months PRIOR to the fuss. The Japanese body find some bitcoins- exactly there is not know how the procedure will be- i supposed, the owners will not be given bitcoins by the actual value- in such case, your version about "reimbursement" is probably correct. BUT, we do not talk about seized currency/assets because of criminal procedure.

No "hostility" of any kind - just when I talk about some thing (peoples, customs, impressions) i know what I'm talking about.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/12/2017 7:17 pm
C.R.S.
(@c-r-s)
Active Member

Interesting thoughts related to this topic Stolen Bitcoin Tracing and Why Bitcoin is Not Cash and the blog post.

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Posted : 15/04/2018 3:34 am
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