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jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
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(There is an article in the Greek Penal procedure code that every document, written by public servant is CORRECT, whatsoever they wrote inside- even pure lies. Thus, it is prohibited in Greece to put in question such documents - the defendant only my try to prove that the document is forged. Thus, in 2018, whatsoever lies one Greek public servant wrote in one document, this is automatically accepted as "correct", and the public servant ( police officer, cyber-crime unit officer) is not obliged to prove the correctness of the facts and the data inside this document. Nice, isn't it? Atomic weaponry in small democracies… . Also, thus, every public servant there is able to "construct" whatsoever "evidences" he desire, and present this garbage like "a fact, an evidence, written in affidavit").

Any actual source?

JFYI, a similar happening
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rgs/alice-XII.html

`Are they in the prisoner's handwriting?' asked another of they jurymen.

`No, they're not,' said the White Rabbit, `and that's the queerest thing about it.' (The jury all looked puzzled.)

`He must have imitated somebody else's hand,' said the King. (The jury all brightened up again.)

`Please your Majesty,' said the Knave, `I didn't write it, and they can't prove I did there's no name signed at the end.'

`If you didn't sign it,' said the King, `that only makes the matter worse. You must have meant some mischief, or else you'd have signed your name like an honest man.'

There was a general clapping of hands at this it was the first really clever thing the King had said that day.

`That proves his guilt,' said the Queen.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 12:00 pm
(@mickarneke)
Posts: 53
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

"Any actual source?"

>>> "Documents drawn up in accordance with the legal forms by a civil servant or officer or a person performing a public service or function constitute a complete proof of all as to what is certified in the document as being made by the person who drew up the document or was made before him if the person this is in the nature and jurisdiction to make this attestation. Counter evidence is only allowed by questioning the document as a forgery."

Article 438, Greek Code of Civil Procedure- actual, today Code. Not from 1950!

i.e. There is not allowed any other forms of "question the document's data" except - the forgery. Which, obviously, never will be true ( that the document is actually, a forgery) - WHY someone public servant to make document forgery, when he is able WITHOUT ANY consequences for him to fill this document with whatsoever lies he wishes??

"Documents drawn up by a foreign public official or official or a person performing a public service or function as a matter of fact and at the place of jurisdiction which are regarded as public documents at the place where they were issued shall have the probative force prescribed in Article 438"

Article 439, Greek Code of Civil Procedure- actual, today Code. Not from 1950!

i.e, "document" from one African, or Chinese corrupted public servant will be used in court in one EU for whatsoever reason, and without any questions, in scope to prosecute someone. Nice, jaclaz, isn't it?

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 1:22 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
Illustrious Member
 

(There is an article in the Greek Penal procedure code that every document, written by public servant is CORRECT, whatsoever they wrote inside- even pure lies. Thus, it is prohibited in Greece to put in question such documents - the defendant only my try to prove that the document is forged. Thus, in 2018, whatsoever lies one Greek public servant wrote in one document, this is automatically accepted as "correct", and the public servant ( police officer, cyber-crime unit officer) is not obliged to prove the correctness of the facts and the data inside this document. Nice, isn't it? Atomic weaponry in small democracies… . Also, thus, every public servant there is able to "construct" whatsoever "evidences" he desire, and present this garbage like "a fact, an evidence, written in affidavit").

>>> "Documents drawn up in accordance with the legal forms by a civil servant or officer or a person performing a public service or function constitute a complete proof of all as to what is certified in the document as being made by the person who drew up the document or was made before him if the person this is in the nature and jurisdiction to make this attestation. Counter evidence is only allowed by insulting the document as a forgery."

Article 438, Greek Code of Civil Procedure- actual, today Code. Not from 1950!

roll

BTW there is also art. 439

http//ec.europa.eu/civiljustice/news/docs/study_public_docs_greece.pdf

Article 439
Foreign public documents
Documents drawn up by a foreign public servant or official or person exercising a public
service or holding a public office, who is competent ratione materiae and ratione loci,
which are regarded as public documents in the place where they were drawn up, have
the evidentiary value stipulated in article 438.

Which more or less states that - say - your German Certificate of Birth is considered as good unless you falsified it.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 1:26 pm
(@mickarneke)
Posts: 53
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Topic starter
 

It is the same - the documents, originated from public servants, are regulated by the Greek Code of Civil Procedure, but are used in Penal or Civil procedure, because it's the same document, same origin. Simply used differently.

It is true - it was checked.

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 1:34 pm
(@mickarneke)
Posts: 53
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

"Which more or less states that - say - your German Certificate of Birth is considered as good unless you falsified it."

It is simple- you do not have right to discuss the CONTENT of the document - i.e, false birth date.
You may only prove, that the document is a forgery (in whole, or in part? it is not clear there). The Greek laws are never clear- they have thousand "doors" for everyone judge to "judge" like he pleases.)

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 1:40 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
Illustrious Member
 

It is true ( what I'm wrote)- it is checked.

Sure it is ) , you wrote it, so, since you are a private nobody posting unofficially on a non-government forum, article 718 of the IDFCR (International Discussion Forum Credibility Rules) gives it full dignity and credibility prohibiting to question its truthfulness.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 1:44 pm
(@mickarneke)
Posts: 53
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

It is true ( what I'm wrote)- it is checked.

Sure it is ) , you wrote it, so, since you are a private nobody posting unofficially on a non-government forum, article 718 of the IDFCR (International Discussion Forum Credibility Rules) gives it full dignity and credibility prohibiting to question its truthfulness.

jaclaz

I simply translate the content of an official law. And do not add anything there from myself.
It is a simple translation of the code, like he is today.

You may question whatsoever you please, if you have arguments. Please, do this.

Because these documents are used in Civil and in Penal procedures, they are regulated in the Civil code. Because, about the validity of these documents in civil vs penal procedures, no different rules are applicable.

You are true friend, I know, I know. ) )

The Medieval part is funny, if not so scare.

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 1:50 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
Illustrious Member
 

I simply translate the content of an official law. And do not add anything there from myself.
It is a simple translation of the code, like he is today.

Maybe you can translate for me the Article 415 here

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zpo/__415.html

Zivilprozessordnung
§ 415 Beweiskraft öffentlicher Urkunden über Erklärungen
(1) Urkunden, die von einer öffentlichen Behörde innerhalb der Grenzen ihrer Amtsbefugnisse oder von einer mit öffentlichem Glauben versehenen Person innerhalb des ihr zugewiesenen Geschäftskreises in der vorgeschriebenen Form aufgenommen sind (öffentliche Urkunden), begründen, wenn sie über eine vor der Behörde oder der Urkundsperson abgegebene Erklärung errichtet sind, vollen Beweis des durch die Behörde oder die Urkundsperson beurkundeten Vorganges.
(2) Der Beweis, dass der Vorgang unrichtig beurkundet sei, ist zulässig.

the translation I found
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_zpo/englisch_zpo.html#p1632
is curiously similar to the Greek Civil procedure code we were talking about

Section 415
Evidentiary value of public records and documents regarding declarations

(1) Records and documents that have been prepared, in accordance with the requirements as to form, by a public authority within the scope of its official responsibilities, or by a person or entity vested with public trust within the sphere of business assigned to him or it (public records and documents), shall establish full proof, provided they have been executed regarding a declaration made before the public authority or the public official issuing the deed.

(2) Evidence proving that the transaction has been improperly recorded is admissible.

Only as a reference, in Italy we have the Art. 2700 in the Codice Civile, also extremely similar
https://www.laleggepertutti.it/codice-civile/art-2700-codice-civile-efficacia-dellatto-pubblico

more or less it comes out as

The public deed makes full proof (1), up to a false complaint (2) (3), the origin of the document from the public official who formed it, as well as the declarations of the parties and other facts that the public official certifies in his presence or by him.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 1:59 pm
(@mickarneke)
Posts: 53
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zpo/__415.html

"…Zivilprozessordnung
§ 415 Beweiskraft öffentlicher Urkunden über Erklärungen
(1) Urkunden, die von einer öffentlichen Behörde innerhalb der Grenzen ihrer Amtsbefugnisse oder von einer mit öffentlichem Glauben versehenen Person innerhalb des ihr zugewiesenen Geschäftskreises in der vorgeschriebenen Form aufgenommen sind (öffentliche Urkunden), begründen, wenn sie über eine vor der Behörde oder der Urkundsperson abgegebene Erklärung errichtet sind, vollen Beweis des durch die Behörde oder die Urkundsperson beurkundeten Vorganges.
(2) Der Beweis, dass der Vorgang unrichtig beurkundet sei, ist zulässig."

(1) A dossier recorded in the prescribed form by a public authority within the limits of its powers of public authority or by a person of public faith within the circle of business assigned to it (public deeds), if justified by an administrative or tribunal Written declaration, full proof of the document authenticated by the authority or the document.
(2) Proof that the case (the process) is incorrectly authenticated, is admissible.

Yes, but there is a big (small for inexperience viewers) difference.
The German code DOES NOT DECLARE, that the questioning of this document is possible ONLY BY PROOF of the document's forgery!! Thus, the German lawmaker is open about the possibility of the questioning of the documents by any legal means, AND DO NOT exclude them! The German lawmakers simply declare, that they respect the document's origin, but NOT prohibit the possibility of legal questioning, OR secretly, in small letters, actually prohibiting this questioning by sophisticated Greek types of "small exclusions" ( which, actually, excludes everything, except a forgery).

The Greek "lawmakers" EXCLUDE any means of questioning, except the document's forgery!

Second- the German lawmaker, differentiate the authentication from the document's contents.

Actually, here, I'm talking about THE possibility of legal questioning of one public documents, and how, and by which legal means this is not possible in Greece!

jaclaz, I'm working almost an year on this case, with very good lawyers. I know, what I'm talking about.
Pls., do not make this another Italian judicial miscarriage of justice, like Amanda Knox and Raffaele Solecito case.

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 2:14 pm
jaclaz
(@jaclaz)
Posts: 5133
Illustrious Member
 

Public deeds constitutes full proof unless and until - in some ways - it is proved otherwise.

This seems a common provision for so called "public instruments" in Civil law (but also in Common Law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_instrument
to the point that the Scots call them "self-proving instruments".

How exactly (the "ways") this can be proved otherwise in different countries might be object for an interesting paper, possibly written by an international assembly of qualified lawyers.

jaclaz

 
Posted : 27/03/2018 2:35 pm
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